Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1354
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:31 pm

So.... should we be registering karmapas.org, or not yet?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

philji
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by philji » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:27 am

crazy-man wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:08 pm
Shamarpa on Two Karmapas becoming friends


http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/2018/10/wi ... competitor

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/fc-weekend/d ... a-intrigue

Is there a translation of Shamarpa's talk?

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

如傑優婆塞 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:36 am
Here is the English transcript of the joint statement:
His Holiness Ogyen Trinley Dorje and His Holiness Trinley Thaye Dorje met over the last few days at a rural location in France. Their purpose was to get to know each other personally. They also discussed how they might work together to preserve and strengthen the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.
More here

Tashi delek,


Very good that both Karmapas can be together.
And i also hope that he position of both Karmapas, will stabilize international seen, that will be good for the Kagyud Lineage.
Hope that Kagyud will be soon that what it was with H.H. the 16th Karmapa and the Black Hat Tradition.
Have the strong wish that also the dirty politics around both Karmapas will end as soon as possible.

My best wishes for both Karmapas :namaste:

Wished by:
KY
The best meditation is no meditation

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:44 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:31 pm
So.... should we be registering karmapas.org, or not yet?
Maybe a little premature. We don't know how or even if this will eventually play out. There may be one, two or no Karmapas for all we know.

Talking of multiple Karmapas, anyone have any news how Dawa Sangpo is taking the latest developments? :thinking:
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4930
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:44 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:31 pm
So.... should we be registering karmapas.org, or not yet?
Maybe a little premature. We don't know how or even if this will eventually play out. There may be one, two or no Karmapas for all we know.

Talking of multiple Karmapas, anyone have any news how Dawa Sangpo is taking the latest developments? :thinking:
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
That sounds alot like wishful thinking to my mind. I would want to hear it from a more reputable source than FB before I believed it. Whatever deal is struck, each side must be able to bring their supporters along or what's the point? I do not believe Thaye Dorje would just give up and walk away saying Ogyen Trinley is your guru now to his followers. That wouldn't work, some role would need to be found for any candidate who decided to step down.

In the 40s there were 2 candidates for Panchen lama, a Chinese supported one who eventually became the 10th Panchen Lama, and one supported by the Dalai Lama who was, for political reasons, not chosen. This second monk was given the title Panchen Otrul Rinpoche or Precious Panchen Candidate. He is alive and well today and lives in Ireland. Perhaps we could see a similar solution with a Karmapa Otrul Rinpoche?
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Seeker12
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:33 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:44 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:31 pm
So.... should we be registering karmapas.org, or not yet?
Maybe a little premature. We don't know how or even if this will eventually play out. There may be one, two or no Karmapas for all we know.

Talking of multiple Karmapas, anyone have any news how Dawa Sangpo is taking the latest developments? :thinking:
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
I have connections with many Thaye Dorje supporters and have certainly not heard this. I feel like I would have if it were accurate, but who knows. I doubt it.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:40 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:33 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:44 pm


Maybe a little premature. We don't know how or even if this will eventually play out. There may be one, two or no Karmapas for all we know.

Talking of multiple Karmapas, anyone have any news how Dawa Sangpo is taking the latest developments? :thinking:
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
I have connections with many Thaye Dorje supporters and have certainly not heard this. I feel like I would have if it were accurate, but who knows. I doubt it.
I suspect there will be many rumors similar to this from both sides until we get more information on what is being discussed and what the way forward will be. This could take months or, more probably, years.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4930
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:28 pm

Just to be clear--I agree, it seems there will be a lot of such manipulations, etc. and I don't put much credence in what people post on FB or pretty much anywhere......

We are going to see a lot of nonsense from all sides.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1354
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
Are you saying that it isn't possible for Karmapa to manifest in infinite forms (or even two), or merely that there can only be one recognized tulku at any one time? I have no problem with there being two Karmapa tulkus or a thousand. I can't recall the details of the lineage history, but I do recall that it is said that Karmapa will sometimes manifest as obstacle makers that are not recognized to provide a counterpoint that buddha activity can sort of push off from. So if he manifests in that way, why not as two or more recognized tulkus much like Pema Lingpa or the Dudjom emanations?

The tulku system provided stability of monasteries and their holdings at a time when warlords might seize the assets, but it's hard to see how it is relevant to the current situation either in the diaspora or in Tibet. It just seems to provoke division and political shenanigans and the recognitions not being falsifiable, ripe for corruption and abuse. If a practitioner has the strong imprints of previous practice, it will manifest as the opportunity to practice and the ability to achieve results. Far better to be a meritocracy based on result in our modern world than a dynastic succession based on divination.

I think for many of us that have faith in the Karma Kamtsang for example, there are many great incarnations of Tai Situ. Most that I have spoken to have little faith in the current one, to be generous.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:23 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 pm

I think for many of us that have faith in the Karma Kamtsang for example, there are many great incarnations of Tai Situ. Most that I have spoken to have little faith in the current one, to be generous.
One thing your statement is definitely not, is generous.

But it is exactly that quality we'll all need if the Karma Kagyu is to be reunited.

So let's stop the finger pointing. Neither side exactly covered themselves in glory over the past twenty-odd years in this.
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4930
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:25 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
Are you saying that it isn't possible for Karmapa to manifest in infinite forms (or even two), or merely that there can only be one recognized tulku at any one time? I have no problem with there being two Karmapa tulkus or a thousand. I can't recall the details of the lineage history, but I do recall that it is said that Karmapa will sometimes manifest as obstacle makers that are not recognized to provide a counterpoint that buddha activity can sort of push off from. So if he manifests in that way, why not as two or more recognized tulkus much like Pema Lingpa or the Dudjom emanations?

The tulku system provided stability of monasteries and their holdings at a time when warlords might seize the assets, but it's hard to see how it is relevant to the current situation either in the diaspora or in Tibet. It just seems to provoke division and political shenanigans and the recognitions not being falsifiable, ripe for corruption and abuse. If a practitioner has the strong imprints of previous practice, it will manifest as the opportunity to practice and the ability to achieve results. Far better to be a meritocracy based on result in our modern world than a dynastic succession based on divination.

I think for many of us that have faith in the Karma Kamtsang for example, there are many great incarnations of Tai Situ. Most that I have spoken to have little faith in the current one, to be generous.
I have great faith in the current Tai Situ Rinpoche, as do the many Kamtsang people I know--Lamas, practitioners, and laypeople with devotion. I also take it as a given that there is only one recognized incarnate Karmapa at a time. Not two. Not three. Not many. I don't think this disagrees with the potential myriad manifestations of the Karmapa. I think recognition is "institutional." KhenChen Thrangu Rinpoche and other Kamtsang authorities have spoken to the subject of "one recognized Karmapa," and I subscribe to that line of doctrine. I am not asking anyone else to, though. I am also open to change, but I place my trust in my gurus. In the end, you all must do the same, right? I am plain-spoken, I hope, and I hope this thread does not devolve into "taking sides" merely because of my own expression of my personal opinion and experience. I am not going to be casting any aspersions on anyone. I would hope we could all do the same. Regarding the comment I made about seeing that post on FB--I am merely reporting what I saw. I also have a copy of a Tibetan letter ostensibly written by Thaya Dorje, though I cannot vouch for authenticity. I will try to post it here, but I am not going to take the time to translate it....others may do so, if they wish.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:51 pm

Post it if you can Cone. Would be interested to see it. I'm sure we'll get it translated.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
Sonam Wangchug
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:26 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:04 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm
Maybe a lot premature. No one has said anything about there being more than one Karmapa, though many of those rejoicing, and those wringing their hands, have assumed this meeting allows for two (or more) Karmapas. I think that's an incorrect inference.

I also saw something on FB about Thaye Dorje renouncing the title, saying he wanted to merely live as a married man with family. I don't know if that is true, but someone posted it on the internet.
Are you saying that it isn't possible for Karmapa to manifest in infinite forms (or even two), or merely that there can only be one recognized tulku at any one time? I have no problem with there being two Karmapa tulkus or a thousand. I can't recall the details of the lineage history, but I do recall that it is said that Karmapa will sometimes manifest as obstacle makers that are not recognized to provide a counterpoint that buddha activity can sort of push off from. So if he manifests in that way, why not as two or more recognized tulkus much like Pema Lingpa or the Dudjom emanations?

The tulku system provided stability of monasteries and their holdings at a time when warlords might seize the assets, but it's hard to see how it is relevant to the current situation either in the diaspora or in Tibet. It just seems to provoke division and political shenanigans and the recognitions not being falsifiable, ripe for corruption and abuse. If a practitioner has the strong imprints of previous practice, it will manifest as the opportunity to practice and the ability to achieve results. Far better to be a meritocracy based on result in our modern world than a dynastic succession based on divination.

I think for many of us that have faith in the Karma Kamtsang for example, there are many great incarnations of Tai Situ. Most that I have spoken to have little faith in the current one, to be generous.
That is correct, there is only one "Karmapa." at a time, unlike other emanations who have body speech mind etc. That does not mean that The Karmapa does not have other emanations benefiting beings, of course, there are countless. I also agree with Khenchen Thrangu rinpoche on this matter, as Rinpoche is incredibly learned on this topic and the lineage histories.

There are stories of other people thinking ill of previous Tai Situs based on his lifestyle, but changing their perspective based on spiritual experience in the past. Here's one such story told by Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche.

"choggyur Lingpa wasn’t that impressed with one of the previous incarnations of T’ai Situ, the present T’ai Situ’s predecessor’s predecessor [the Tenth T’ai Situ]. He was not that impressed because I think the Tenth T’ai Situ carried a gun and had dungeons and stuff like that. He was more like a warlord than a master. Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo told Choggyur Lingpa, you go and receive abhisheka from T’ai Situ. Choggyur Lingpa really didn’t want to, but Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo said, you must. It is believed that when Choggyur Lingpa received the Chakrasamvara initiation all his ordinary thoughts stopped and Palpung Situ, Chakrasamvara, and Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, took turns sitting on the throne and giving the initiation. There are many stories like that."

So, it is very difficult for ordinary sentient beings like us to judge. There is also a story about one of the Masters receiving a wang with the previous Tai situ rinpoche, prior to this he was not that impressed particularly, but situ rinpoche asked him if he had seen the deity face to face during the wang, to which the Rinpoche replied he hadn't, However Tai situ did, which increased his devotion.

My Refuge teacher once went into a room I assume it was at Palpung, He looked around and saw all of the monks prostrating, but there was just an empty throne in front of him. He was confused, but he figured that since they were all prostrating he should as well. Suddely when the 11th Tai situ rinpoche began to speak he saw him materialized on the throne. He took this as an indication that the Tai situ does not actually have a gross body, he is just manifesting in the perception of sentient beings.

Dilgo khyentse Rinpoche states in his Namthar that of all the regents he had to greatest faith and hopes in the Present Tai situ Rinpoche. The 11th Tai situ rinpoche was the 16th karmapa's Tsawai lama, and they of course had a profound connection in the Yangsi's lifetime. For example, HH the 16th karmapa was known to sometimes be quite wrathful, he would scold lama's, but he never scolded the present Tai situ rinpoche.

"I was with my guru, His Holiness the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa, for nine years solid. You would think that after nine years of seeing somebody every day they would become like your buddy. He never did. Because my previous incarnation was his guru he always treated me well, with honor and respect. He never beat me, or shouted at me, he was not ten feet tall, so there was really no reason to be afraid of him. But interacting with him was like being in the presence of a lion. I think this was because of his ever-present awareness. He was like a big, healthy, strong lion that understood me, took care of me and taught me with kindness and compassion. Everything was also very quiet around him even though he had an aviary full of birds, ten little dogs, a huge white dog, Siamese cats and a green peacock from Java. It was just like being in the depths of the ocean. I think this quietness also came from his ever-present, primordial wisdom. It had to have."

(12th Kenting Tai Situpa, “Ground, Path & Fruition”, pp. 269-270)

I haven't had it 'officially' verified. However, I was at a teaching once where a student of Tai situ rinpoche asked the teacher a question, While I do not remember what the question was, there was a story within it that the Present Tai situ rinpoche had left his footprint in a stone at Sherab ling, and immediately ordered that his monks bury it to conceal this.

One might think how can one accidentally leave a footprint in stone? Well it does happen, I have a friend from Bhutan whose father is a Lama in an ancestral Drikung Kagyu lineage, while he is not a celebrated lama, never the less once during the time of his retreat he walked into the courtyard and left a clear impression of his foot in the stone. To my recollection he also had this concealed. These kinds of things can happen when realization blazes.

One time Tai situ rinpoche was sitting in a throne, I believe it was in Nepal, and HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche walked in and offered prostrations, Tai situ stayed sitting erect and didn't even budge, the Nyingmapas got upset about this. However HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche said to not critisize him he has been my guru in previous lives, and that he had a strong faith in him. Evidence of this, once HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche stayed at Sherab ling for a week and requested a private ceremony of the Red crown ceremony. These stories can be found in the book Brilliant moon.

But if people don't have faith in him, I can't force them to. If people believe in their own masters, that is perfectly fine as well. I can only tell you that despite whatever I have heard about him, none of it really diminished my own faith in Tai situ rinpoche, I can't explain why, but it's just my own experience.

I think that neither of them are asserting there are 'two' Karmapa's rather, they are trying to have more harmony and respect between the followers.

I found it strange myself to see Angry students of OTD, if you have faith in him, why would you not respect his choice to meet TD?
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4930
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:11 pm

E302EDA5-EDB3-4CC9-BDF1-A60285BD913B.jpeg
E302EDA5-EDB3-4CC9-BDF1-A60285BD913B.jpeg (222.68 KiB) Viewed 694 times
Here is the “letter” I spoke of....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:02 pm

So anyone capable of translating this?

From my rudimentary Tibetan I can see that Ogyen Trinley is referred to as Gyalwa Karmapa and Thaye Dorje is not in the document.

The signatures certainly resemble those on the earlier press release but that is easy to fake. Like the earlier press releases headed notepaper is not used.

My question really would be that if this document does signify Thaye Dorje's withdrawal, why not publish that straight away? Why the joint letter published on October 11?

I also see from his website that Thaye Dorje yesterday signalled his attendance at his group's monlam in Bodh Gaya in December. Hardly the act of someone who has withdrawn from the role of Karmapa.

Maybe a translation will shed more light. I can't see how this is real. Even if it was, who leaked it and why? If it is fake, who gains by doing this? Curiouser and curiouser.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4930
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:18 pm

The letter refers to Thaye Dorje as Karmapa as well...
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:31 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:18 pm
The letter refers to Thaye Dorje as Karmapa as well...
I defer to your better Tibetan... :)
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

mandog
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by mandog » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 pm


Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm

mandog wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 pm
from Beru Khyentse Rinpoche...

https://www.facebook.com/BeruKhyentseRi ... =3&theater
Do you think that this is party line for both sides? Or is just what Beru Khyentse R hopes will be beneficial at the present time?
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Locked

Return to “Kagyu”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: namoh and 11 guests