Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

haha
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by haha » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:59 pm

One can regard that the sphere of infinite consciousness is ultimate. One will experience this consciousness is so pure and vast. And then feel I am that.

From another tradition:
2. When Buddha says “the mind is not to be found,” this indicates that luminosity and knowing nature are not the mind’s deepest and final nature. Rather, the ultimate nature of the mind is “clear light,” its emptiness of inherent existence.

You might think Buddha is saying that the mind does not exist, but this is not the case. I, as the explainer, am explaining this statement through the workings of my own mind, and you, the reader, are reading by the workings of your mind. We are always using the mind, and it is always right with us, but we do not know it well. Thus, even though it is difficult to identify the mind, it exists and is being analyzed as to whether it is its own deep nature.

It is clear that the mind exists, but since it is not established as its own final nature and basic disposition,what is its mode of being? Its deep nature is a mere emptiness of its own inherent existence. This means that the faulty defilements that pollute the mind—such as ignorance, lust, and hatred—are temporary, and therefore separable from the mind. Once these defilements are understood to be superficial and not in the mind’s basic nature, we see that the deep nature of the mind is clear light, emptiness.

From Dalai Lama, "How to Practice: The way to a meaningful Life"

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by Astus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:05 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:38 pm
I get that bodhisattvas agree to keep being reborn over and over and over to help nudge suffering begins towards liberation. But don't any enlightened beings get to retire and like ... melt into the universe in utter bliss when they shuffle off the mortal coil?
'Buddha activity is spontaneous because through their knowledge of variety, they do not need to think, “For whom am I doing this?” or “What way should I so this?” because they automatically know for whom and by what means they are going to act. Through the knowledge of how-it-is they understand that everything is nonexistent, unborn, and has no actual reality. So when they are acting, they do not hesitate wondering if everything is real. Knowing true emptiness, they know precisely how to act. In this way buddha activity is spontaneous and devoid of any thought and at the same time corresponds exactly to the needs of the beings they are helping.'
'Buddha activity has an unceasing character because from the very beginning, the Buddhas committed themselves to the goal of achieving Buddhahood for the sake of other beings. Secondly, the Buddhas saw the similarity between themselves and other beings and understood that if they managed to achieve Buddhahood, then everyone else could also become a Buddha. A third reason for this ceaselessness is that the number of beings is infinite and the Buddhas will never stop acting to help them until samsara is finished. So as long as there are beings in samsara, buddha activity will continue.'

(Thrangu Rinpoche, in The Uttara Tantra: A Treatise on Buddha Nature, p 166-167, 169)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

stevie
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:27 pm

Rick wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:40 pm
How about after the death of a Buddhist enlightened being? Is it similar to a Vedantic paramukta?
What death? What enlightened being?

you see that in as much as you take your concepts to be true you're subject to deceptive thought proliferation.

dudette
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by dudette » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:40 pm

The strongest difference between Vedanta and Buddhism is that emptiness applies to everything. Vedanta typically teaches that emptiness only applies at the level of Maya, and that Brahman is not empty. Keep in mind we are comparing the systems from a conceptual viewpoint, and conceptually, they are quite different. I have never heard of a Buddhist teacher, Kagyu or not, who posited a single, universal consciousness that intentionally forgets itself and arises as numberless beings.
Not really, since some Christian and Muslim mystic actually apply emptiness to God/Brahman. The difference between Theravadan emptiness and Christian and Muslim mystic emptiness is that in Theravada emptiness is cause by continuously changing reality; therefore, we have conventional truth (nothing is changing to our eyes) and ultimate truth (nothing actually states the same the outer world and the inner world). While Christian and Muslim mystics refer to the emptiness as non-changing which is cause by tripping the materialistic view.

So Theravadas would argue that since the emptiness is not really eternal infinite metaphysical substance, but the emptiness is caused by continuously changing reality (inner and outer world), so even if the God/Brahman is referred to as emptiness by the mystics then Theravadins would argue against God/Brahman on the bases of that eternal infinite metaphysical substance cannot exist because of continuously changing reality (inner and outer world).
Both sides of the two truths show significant differences, and the unity of the two is very much an exclusively Buddhist view. Buddha-nature is not simply some ultimate awareness, but it refers to the buddha qualities, the buddha bodies, and the buddha knowledges/wisdoms. For the Advaitins liberation means the end of all transitory appearances, similarly to the Samkhya teaching where Prakrti completely stops, and only the ultimate remains that practically does nothing apart from being absorbed in itself. So, the Buddhist view is that the ultimate is essentially empty and functionally active, while the Hindu one is that the ultimate is essentially substantial and functionally inactive.
In Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc., "the theistic enlightenment" has also qualities such as enlightened knowledges/wisdoms, enlightened bodies and enlightened qualities. Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics (which I have read) would describe enlightened people as people with enlightened bodies. Their bodies would be described always as pure light and source of light; therefore, their bodies would be Levitating a little bit above the ground, etc. etc.

The same with enlightened knowledges/wisdoms, Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics described this knowledge as "ability to see the future past of one's life and others people lives". Therefore, this argument is also a bad argument.

Theravadins would argue that even though these people have enlightened knowledge/wisdom, enlightened bodies and enlightened qualities, these qualities are caused by "temporary" enlightenment because they have "wrong view" which is that there is no God/Brahman so they are not ultimately free from attachments which is attachment to God/Brahman.
But I wonder, Wayfarer - and by that I mean, I don't really know - if that notion of existence couldn't also apply to Atman/Brahman? Perhaps not unilaterally, but in certain contexts depending on which philosophical iteration one is dealing with. If so, it doesn't really get us out of the problematic. One naturally thinks of that old Upanishadic refrain "neti, neti" which clearly implies that one can only arrive at Atman via negation, which in the same breath, problematises the sense that Buddhists often have, of some kind of Vedantic reification of (ideal) existence, tangible Being, etc.
Good point. Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics would always negate God/Brahman. This is kinda the reason why it is so difficult to argue this since it was supposed to take one post, with similarities and differences, but there are now over 100 replies. where some post like the ones I have quoted are just stupid and ignorance about Hindu, Christian and Muslim mysticism.

Also to the admins, in this post as you can see I am not comparing Tibetan Buddhism to anything, I am just simply quoting assumptions about Advaita which are simply wrong, and arguing as Theravadin against the correct version of Advaita arguments.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:54 pm

'Question: When one directly realizes the ultimate, does that mean that conventional phenomena just become non-existent or go away?
Rinpoche: As for appearances of conventionalities or conventional appearances, for beginners indeed when in this state of meditative equipoise in which the mind is set evenly, fully and in a balanced manner upon the ultimate, such conventional appearances do disappear. However, when the dharmata has become fully and completely manifest, they do not. Finally, just while things are empty they appear and right when they appear, just when they appear, they are at that time empty. If it were not that way, then it would be the case that emptiness on the one hand and appearance on the other were contrary. Are those two contrary? No, they are not. It is not thus necessary that the dawning of one entails the disappearance of the other. Temporarily as one is moving along the path that is the state, but in the end no: they dawn together.'

(Thrangu Rinpoche, in Distinguishing Dharma and Dharmata, p 77)
The failure here is in the initial question: there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve. And when fabrications dissolve everything and nothing dissolve. It's simply cessation of consciousness due to cessation of ignorance. But the Rinpoche just keeps on fabricating. Why does he? I don't know, maybe because he takes some of his concepts to be true, e.g. his concept 'dharmata'.
He says 'Finally, just while things are empty they appear and right when they appear, just when they appear, they are at that time empty.' but there are no things that appear finally, there are no appearances finally. There are appearances only in the conventional which is true only for an obscurer but not true finally.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by smcj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 pm

...there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve.
In Shentong view there is an Ultimate.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:17 pm

Hindu/Vedanta can't let go of their fabrications even when it comes to 'the ultimate'. There are also buddhist traditions that fabricate an alleged 'ultimate' as this or that. So there is quite some familiarity between Hindu/Vedanta and buddhism.
Taking the idea of 'the ultimate' as the mere non-implicative negation of all fabrications seems to be a great challenge for sentient beings of the desire realm.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:19 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm
Astus wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:54 pm

'Question: When one directly realizes the ultimate, does that mean that conventional phenomena just become non-existent or go away?
Rinpoche: As for appearances of conventionalities or conventional appearances, for beginners indeed when in this state of meditative equipoise in which the mind is set evenly, fully and in a balanced manner upon the ultimate, such conventional appearances do disappear. However, when the dharmata has become fully and completely manifest, they do not. Finally, just while things are empty they appear and right when they appear, just when they appear, they are at that time empty. If it were not that way, then it would be the case that emptiness on the one hand and appearance on the other were contrary. Are those two contrary? No, they are not. It is not thus necessary that the dawning of one entails the disappearance of the other. Temporarily as one is moving along the path that is the state, but in the end no: they dawn together.'

(Thrangu Rinpoche, in Distinguishing Dharma and Dharmata, p 77)
The failure here is in the initial question: there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve. And when fabrications dissolve everything and nothing dissolve. It's simply cessation of consciousness due to cessation of ignorance. But the Rinpoche just keeps on fabricating. Why does he? I don't know, maybe because he takes some of his concepts to be true, e.g. his concept 'dharmata'.
He says 'Finally, just while things are empty they appear and right when they appear, just when they appear, they are at that time empty.' but there are no things that appear finally, there are no appearances finally. There are appearances only in the conventional which is true only for an obscurer but not true finally.
First of all, Dharmata is not "his concept", secondly this is Thrangu Rinpoche, an quite well known teacher in the Kagyu lineage. If you want to refute him at least come up with a more coherent refutation.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Rick
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by Rick » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:24 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:05 pm
'Buddha activity has an unceasing character because from the very beginning, the Buddhas committed themselves to the goal of achieving Buddhahood for the sake of other beings. Secondly, the Buddhas saw the similarity between themselves and other beings and understood that if they managed to achieve Buddhahood, then everyone else could also become a Buddha. A third reason for this ceaselessness is that the number of beings is infinite and the Buddhas will never stop acting to help them until samsara is finished. So as long as there are beings in samsara, buddha activity will continue.'
(Thrangu Rinpoche, in The Uttara Tantra: A Treatise on Buddha Nature, p 166-167, 169)
You go Buddhas! You've got your work cut out for you ... for unfathomable eons to come. :namaste: :anjali: :namaste:
Last edited by Rick on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

stevie
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:25 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:19 pm
First of all, Dharmata is not "his concept", secondly this is Thrangu Rinpoche, an quite well known teacher in the Kagyu lineage. If you want to refute him at least come up with a more coherent refutation.
I do not want to refute anybody. I am just talking from within my sphere of experience. If I had a truth independent of my sphere of experience I could refute everybody not compliant with this truth.

stevie
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:34 pm

smcj wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 pm
...there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve.
In Shentong view there is an Ultimate.
The world knows many views.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by Astus » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:44 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 pm
The failure here is in the initial question: there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve. And when fabrications dissolve everything and nothing dissolve. It's simply cessation of consciousness due to cessation of ignorance.
Non-fabrication does not mean either a sudden disappearance of everything, nor the total cessation of mental functions. Non-fabrication means not taking appearances to be substantial, to be personal, and that way not forming attachments to them. There are actually a lot more things and beings one has no emotional relationship with than things and beings with what one has. That way one can recognise a bit of how freedom from attachment looks like.
But the Rinpoche just keeps on fabricating. Why does he? I don't know, maybe because he takes some of his concepts to be true, e.g. his concept 'dharmata'.
Please review what buddhahood entails: The Qualities of Buddha's Omniscient Mind.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by smcj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:58 pm

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:34 pm
smcj wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:10 pm
...there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve.
In Shentong view there is an Ultimate.
The world knows many views.
Exactly.

However this back-and-forth is happening in the Kagyu subforum of the dharmawheel.net website. So the agreement is that the Kagyu view can be clarified but not challenged.

There are other sub forums here where your posts would be 100% appropriate. Given that you want to speak from your own experience I’d like to suggest the personal experience subforum.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by stevie » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:24 am

I have to apologize for posting in a tradition's section of this forum. Not following a tradition myself it is sometimes alluring to post here and there depending on topics and ignoring that it's actually a tradition's view that is under consideration.
Please accept my apologies.

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tobes
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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:00 am

Astus wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:31 am
tobes wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:06 pm
Practically speaking, I think the decisive difference pertains far more to conventional reality rather than ultimate.
Both sides of the two truths show significant differences, and the unity of the two is very much an exclusively Buddhist view. Buddha-nature is not simply some ultimate awareness, but it refers to the buddha qualities, the buddha bodies, and the buddha knowledges/wisdoms. For the Advaitins liberation means the end of all transitory appearances, similarly to the Samkhya teaching where Prakrti completely stops, and only the ultimate remains that practically does nothing apart from being absorbed in itself. So, the Buddhist view is that the ultimate is essentially empty and functionally active, while the Hindu one is that the ultimate is essentially substantial and functionally inactive.
Yes, I think this is an important distinction to make. In fact, I think Samkhya-yoga is considerably further away from the - any - Buddhist view in lieu of the fundamental ontological difference between prakrti and purusha. Nonetheless, when we charge the Vedantins with holding the ultimate as 'essentially substantial' I think we often do that almost by wrote and without really deeply engaging with or investigating what we might mean by 'substantial.' This takes further down the road of polemic, and further away from the road of genuine philosophical inquiry.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:02 am

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:17 pm
Hindu/Vedanta can't let go of their fabrications even when it comes to 'the ultimate'. There are also buddhist traditions that fabricate an alleged 'ultimate' as this or that. So there is quite some familiarity between Hindu/Vedanta and buddhism.
Taking the idea of 'the ultimate' as the mere non-implicative negation of all fabrications seems to be a great challenge for sentient beings of the desire realm.
This seems to be the kind of thought I'm suspicious of. We're really sure they can't let got of their fabrications? How are we sure about this? What is that knowledge/claim grounded in? To me, the claim itself sounds precisely like a perfect expression of fabricating!

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:10 am

dudette wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:40 pm
The strongest difference between Vedanta and Buddhism is that emptiness applies to everything. Vedanta typically teaches that emptiness only applies at the level of Maya, and that Brahman is not empty. Keep in mind we are comparing the systems from a conceptual viewpoint, and conceptually, they are quite different. I have never heard of a Buddhist teacher, Kagyu or not, who posited a single, universal consciousness that intentionally forgets itself and arises as numberless beings.
Not really, since some Christian and Muslim mystic actually apply emptiness to God/Brahman. The difference between Theravadan emptiness and Christian and Muslim mystic emptiness is that in Theravada emptiness is cause by continuously changing reality; therefore, we have conventional truth (nothing is changing to our eyes) and ultimate truth (nothing actually states the same the outer world and the inner world). While Christian and Muslim mystics refer to the emptiness as non-changing which is cause by tripping the materialistic view.

So Theravadas would argue that since the emptiness is not really eternal infinite metaphysical substance, but the emptiness is caused by continuously changing reality (inner and outer world), so even if the God/Brahman is referred to as emptiness by the mystics then Theravadins would argue against God/Brahman on the bases of that eternal infinite metaphysical substance cannot exist because of continuously changing reality (inner and outer world).
Both sides of the two truths show significant differences, and the unity of the two is very much an exclusively Buddhist view. Buddha-nature is not simply some ultimate awareness, but it refers to the buddha qualities, the buddha bodies, and the buddha knowledges/wisdoms. For the Advaitins liberation means the end of all transitory appearances, similarly to the Samkhya teaching where Prakrti completely stops, and only the ultimate remains that practically does nothing apart from being absorbed in itself. So, the Buddhist view is that the ultimate is essentially empty and functionally active, while the Hindu one is that the ultimate is essentially substantial and functionally inactive.
In Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc., "the theistic enlightenment" has also qualities such as enlightened knowledges/wisdoms, enlightened bodies and enlightened qualities. Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics (which I have read) would describe enlightened people as people with enlightened bodies. Their bodies would be described always as pure light and source of light; therefore, their bodies would be Levitating a little bit above the ground, etc. etc.

The same with enlightened knowledges/wisdoms, Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics described this knowledge as "ability to see the future past of one's life and others people lives". Therefore, this argument is also a bad argument.

Theravadins would argue that even though these people have enlightened knowledge/wisdom, enlightened bodies and enlightened qualities, these qualities are caused by "temporary" enlightenment because they have "wrong view" which is that there is no God/Brahman so they are not ultimately free from attachments which is attachment to God/Brahman.
But I wonder, Wayfarer - and by that I mean, I don't really know - if that notion of existence couldn't also apply to Atman/Brahman? Perhaps not unilaterally, but in certain contexts depending on which philosophical iteration one is dealing with. If so, it doesn't really get us out of the problematic. One naturally thinks of that old Upanishadic refrain "neti, neti" which clearly implies that one can only arrive at Atman via negation, which in the same breath, problematises the sense that Buddhists often have, of some kind of Vedantic reification of (ideal) existence, tangible Being, etc.
Good point. Hindu, Christian and Muslim mystics would always negate God/Brahman. This is kinda the reason why it is so difficult to argue this since it was supposed to take one post, with similarities and differences, but there are now over 100 replies. where some post like the ones I have quoted are just stupid and ignorance about Hindu, Christian and Muslim mysticism.

Also to the admins, in this post as you can see I am not comparing Tibetan Buddhism to anything, I am just simply quoting assumptions about Advaita which are simply wrong, and arguing as Theravadin against the correct version of Advaita arguments.
These are just your opinions.Please add citations.Another tip.Don't refer to others posts as stupid. If you do not agree then point out in what way they are erroneous.
By the way what is your background that leads to your opinions teachers,books?

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:31 am

To defend Dudette a little: I think what is asserted there is quite obviously more than his/her mere opinion.

Even a cursory examination of the relationship between ancient Greek metaphysics and various (especially) medieval theological systems from all three monotheistic traditions grants us apophatic theology. Negation also plays a very robust role in some variants of Hindu metaphysics/practice.I think I mentioned the classic Upanshadic refrain "neti! Neti!" which means "not that! not that!" And I take the point to be: once we're in this sphere of negation, it is difficult to hoist metaphysical errors upon the proponents, because what precisely are they asserting?

Surely as followers of Nagarjuna - who has taken this to its most refined logical end point - we should be alert to the error of hoisting charges upon people who do not make positive assertions?

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:13 am

tobes wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:31 am
To defend Dudette a little: I think what is asserted there is quite obviously more than his/her mere opinion.

Even a cursory examination of the relationship between ancient Greek metaphysics and various (especially) medieval theological systems from all three monotheistic traditions grants us apophatic theology. Negation also plays a very robust role in some variants of Hindu metaphysics/practice.I think I mentioned the classic Upanshadic refrain "neti! Neti!" which means "not that! not that!" And I take the point to be: once we're in this sphere of negation, it is difficult to hoist metaphysical errors upon the proponents, because what precisely are they asserting?

Surely as followers of Nagarjuna - who has taken this to its most refined logical end point - we should be alert to the error of hoisting charges upon people who do not make positive assertions?
When someone does not give citations and posts with no reference..When one refers to others posts as
stupid and written out of ignorance without pointing out said posts is plainly rude.
Dudette's was given the answer to what she asked in her OP in the second post by Greg.

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Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?

Post by PeterC » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:46 am

stevie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:54 pm
Well, from my perspective it means...
From others’ perspective the world is flat and vaccines cause autism. You have to do a bit better than just offering your own personal experience.
But the Rinpoche just keeps on fabricating...
He’s one of the most eminent scholars in not just this lineage but the Tibetan tradition generally. So in order to take the assertions of someone on the Internet over his, I think we need citations and reasoning, not just personal opinion.

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