my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

dudette
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my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by dudette » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:00 pm

So I was talking to other Tibetan Buddhists from another forum, and they said that it is normal for them to read books about Buddhism from various teachers and scholars. I was told that it is normal to even read books from different lineages and branches of Buddhism. However, lately I have noticed that in my local Karma-Kagyu's center, members are forbidden to read anything which is not authorized by their teacher. From my experience, they teach that reading books which are not authorized by the teacher will lead to decline of spiritual health (they kindly refuse when you offer them any book which is not authorized by their teachers, and they would often say that reading books which are not authorized by their teacher is like "getting wasted on different types of alcohol which leads to huge hangover"). Why my local Karma-Kagyu's center chooses to isolate its members like a cult? Do you find this strange that members of my local Karma-Kagyu's center are not allowed to read books by various authors while Theravadas, Mayahanas and other Tibetans are allowed to read books?

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:05 pm

IMO that's almost always a red flag.

I've had some teachers tell me I should stop reading for a while, or that I should read more narrowly, it's often good advice.

However, that's very different than trying to limit someone's options and autonomy, I personally would avoid people who think that way. Whether it's cult like behavior or not, I don't think it's good.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:12 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:00 pm
So I was talking to other Tibetan Buddhists from another forum, and they said that it is normal for them to read books about Buddhism from various teachers and scholars. I was told that it is normal to even read books from different lineages and branches of Buddhism. However, lately I have noticed that in my local Karma-Kagyu's center, members are forbidden to read anything which is not authorized by their teacher. From my experience, they teach that reading books which are not authorized by the teacher will lead to decline of spiritual health (they kindly refuse when you offer them any book which is not authorized by their teachers, and they would often say that reading books which are not authorized by their teacher is like "getting wasted on different types of alcohol which leads to huge hangover"). Why my local Karma-Kagyu's center chooses to isolate its members like a cult? Do you find this strange that members of my local Karma-Kagyu's center are not allowed to read books by various authors while Theravadas, Mayahanas and other Tibetans are allowed to read books?
This is the second thread you have started in order to complain about the particular center. Why do you just NOT go there? Why don't you just go somewhere else. The solution is really that simple.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by dudette » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:05 pm
IMO that's almost always a red flag.

I've had some teachers tell me I should stop reading for a while, or that I should read more narrowly, it's often good advice.

However, that's very different than trying to limit someone's options and autonomy, I personally would avoid people who think that way. Whether it's cult like behavior or not, I don't think it's good.
They told me that Karmapa through Ole Nydahl told them this. "if you choose the Karma-Kagyu then you are not allowed to read non-authorized books or books from different lineages because of declination of spiritual health".
This is not a joke. Do you have any good sources which directly state that as member Karma-Kagyu, this is not the case?
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:12 pm
This is the second thread you have started in order to complain about the particular center. Why do you just not go there? Why don't you just go somewhere else. The solution is really is that simple.
I feel bad for these people. I think they are being tricked.
Do you think there is a way to save them?
Is there some kind of procedure within Karma-Kagyu to alarm that this or that teacher/center is doing something wrong and harmful to the students?

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:35 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm
They told me that Karmapa through Ole Nydahl told them this. "if you choose the Karma-Kagyu then you are not allowed to read non-authorized books or books from different lineages because of declination of spiritual health".
This is not a joke. Do you have any good sources which directly state that as member Karma-Kagyu, this is not the case?
Well the current Karmapa is certainly non-sectarian:

https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa-in-manh ... -in-force/

And the 16th Karmapa was a proponent of the rimé (non-sectarian) movement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimé_movement

And they both have received teachings from numerous teachers outside the Karma Kagyu, so I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by smcj » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Well the current Karmapa is certainly non-sectarian:
https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa-in-manh ... -in-force/
That’s not the Karmapa candidate Diamond Way follows.
——————————
It’s important for you to know you don’t have to put up with something that makes you uncomfortable. So I n this case i think Greg is right. Go find another group.

And BTW, “Diamond Way” is only one flavor of Karma Kagyu. There are a few flavors available. And the Sakyas, Nyingma, and Gelugpas all have good things to offer too. Just don’t rush into anything. Each tradition has good teachers and not so good teachers. Use your own good judgment.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
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Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
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Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Tlalok » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:57 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:35 pm
dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm
They told me that Karmapa through Ole Nydahl told them this. "if you choose the Karma-Kagyu then you are not allowed to read non-authorized books or books from different lineages because of declination of spiritual health".
This is not a joke. Do you have any good sources which directly state that as member Karma-Kagyu, this is not the case?
Well the current Karmapa is certainly non-sectarian:

https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa-in-manh ... -in-force/

And the 16th Karmapa was a proponent of the rimé (non-sectarian) movement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimé_movement

And they both have received teachings from numerous teachers outside the Karma Kagyu, so I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.
Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche is one of the most influential Karma Kagyupas about right now and he recieved his Dzogchen and Mahamudra training from Tulku Urgen Rinpoche and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche, both Nyingmapa lamas. I'm pretty sure the 16th Karmapa wouldn't insist on preventing people from reading from different traditions considering his corpus of work. Ole Nydahl on the other hand appears to have some views on sectarianism, however.

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Miroku » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:17 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:05 pm
IMO that's almost always a red flag.

I've had some teachers tell me I should stop reading for a while, or that I should read more narrowly, it's often good advice.

However, that's very different than trying to limit someone's options and autonomy, I personally would avoid people who think that way. Whether it's cult like behavior or not, I don't think it's good.
They told me that Karmapa through Ole Nydahl told them this. "if you choose the Karma-Kagyu then you are not allowed to read non-authorized books or books from different lineages because of declination of spiritual health".
This is not a joke. Do you have any good sources which directly state that as member Karma-Kagyu, this is not the case?
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:12 pm
This is the second thread you have started in order to complain about the particular center. Why do you just not go there? Why don't you just go somewhere else. The solution is really is that simple.
I feel bad for these people. I think they are being tricked.
Do you think there is a way to save them?
Is there some kind of procedure within Karma-Kagyu to alarm that this or that teacher/center is doing something wrong and harmful to the students?
The "Karmapa" quote is BS. I doubt any teacher would say that. And if so then probably there was something lost in translation or context was missed. Anyway better to stay out of the center. It does pain me to say but DWB is suspicious.

It is not in your power to save them. Focus on your practice and be the best person you can be. That might get them curious. :D But really there is nothing you can do.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:23 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm

I feel bad for these people. I think they are being tricked.
Do you think there is a way to save them?
Is there some kind of procedure within Karma-Kagyu to alarm that this or that teacher/center is doing something wrong and harmful to the students?

Maybe some are, others are lapping it up because it feeds something unhealthy that they've come to associate with "enlightenment". Either way, nothing you can do, and it isn't your job to save them, better off focused on your own practice, and possibly not being there.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:24 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm
Well the current Karmapa is certainly non-sectarian:
https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa-in-manh ... -in-force/
That’s not the Karmapa candidate Diamond Way follows.
——————————
It’s important for you to know you don’t have to put up with something that makes you uncomfortable. So I n this case i think Greg is right. Go find another group.

And BTW, “Diamond Way” is only one flavor of Karma Kagyu. There are a few flavors available. And the Sakyas, Nyingma, and Gelugpas all have good things to offer too. Just don’t rush into anything. Each tradition has good teachers and not so good teachers. Use your own good judgment.
Actually the Karmapa that Diamond Way claims to follow is not sectarian either. Here in the UK he has often given teachings to a well known Sakya group. So it looks like that opinion is held just by Ole.
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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:34 pm

Look, Diamond Way Buddhism is really Ole's own creation. It's given grudging support by some of the Karma Kagyu lineage holders, but even HE Shamarpa ended up creating his own centers and programs prior to his passing. I think it's a stretch to call any Diamond Way Center a mainstream Karma Kagyu center. Ole took some general advice and encouragement from HH Gyalwa Karmapa and Heart Suns, fairly early on, and ran with it, IMO.

If you want a list of "mainstream" Karma Kagyu centers, or centers that include access to the unbroken lineage of the Kamtsang, you should check out KTD and affiliated centers, any of Kalu Rinpoche's centers (DakShang Kagyu--institutionally affiliated with, and maintaining practices of, the Karma Kamtsang while focusing also on the Shangpa tradition), any of HE Tai Situ Rinpoche's Palpung associated centers, any centers associated with HE Thrangu Rinpoche. Tergar centers are associated with Kamtsang, Palpung and also Chogling Tersar traditions. I'm sure there are others which present the unbroken transmission of the Kamstang that I'm missing, as well...
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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:10 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:00 pm
So I was talking to other Tibetan Buddhists from another forum, and they said that it is normal for them to read books about Buddhism from various teachers and scholars. I was told that it is normal to even read books from different lineages and branches of Buddhism. However, lately I have noticed that in my local Karma-Kagyu's center, members are forbidden to read anything which is not authorized by their teacher. From my experience, they teach that reading books which are not authorized by the teacher will lead to decline of spiritual health (they kindly refuse when you offer them any book which is not authorized by their teachers, and they would often say that reading books which are not authorized by their teacher is like "getting wasted on different types of alcohol which leads to huge hangover"). Why my local Karma-Kagyu's center chooses to isolate its members like a cult? Do you find this strange that members of my local Karma-Kagyu's center are not allowed to read books by various authors while Theravadas, Mayahanas and other Tibetans are allowed to read books?
What specific center are you referring to?

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm

Dudette wrote:I feel bad for these people. I think they are being tricked.
Do you think there is a way to save them?
Is there some kind of procedure within Karma-Kagyu to alarm that this or that teacher/center is doing something wrong and harmful to the students?
Definitely not. I think that possibly the Ole Nydahl organisation is a cult or has some cult-like characteristics, but it's up to individuals to make that judgement. But this is the second post of yours taking issue with what you're learning at that organisation, it might be a good idea to stop going there.
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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:34 pm
If you want a list of "mainstream" Karma Kagyu centers, or centers that include access to the unbroken lineage of the Kamtsang, you should check out KTD and affiliated centers, any of Kalu Rinpoche's centers (DakShang Kagyu--institutionally affiliated with, and maintaining practices of, the Karma Kamtsang while focusing also on the Shangpa tradition), any of HE Tai Situ Rinpoche's Palpung associated centers, any centers associated with HE Thrangu Rinpoche. Tergar centers are associated with Kamtsang, Palpung and also Chogling Tersar traditions. I'm sure there are others which present the unbroken transmission of the Kamstang that I'm missing, as well...
I would add Bodhipath centers to that list and any Karma Kagyu center affiliated to Karmapa Thaye Thinley that is NOT part of Diamond Way.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:28 pm

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:22 pm
They told me that Karmapa through Ole Nydahl told them this.
They told you BS.
I feel bad for these people. I think they are being tricked.
They are being tricked.
Do you think there is a way to save them?
Can you save yourself? Then what makes you think you can save others?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:41 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:48 pm
Well the current Karmapa is certainly non-sectarian:
https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa-in-manh ... -in-force/
That’s not the Karmapa candidate Diamond Way follows.
——————————
Doesn't change the point about the 16th Karmapa. And from what I've read Thaye Dorje doesn't seem very sectarian either.

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:01 am

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:41 pm
And from what I've read Thaye Dorje doesn't seem very sectarian either.
He is not.

When I invited Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche to Greece there were four Karma Kagyu LAMA present for the teachings (followers of Karmapa Thaye Thinley) and a fifth would have come except that he had health issues.

I also know for a fact that three of them were students of ChNNR and members of DC.

Diamond Way is it's own little universe, one that should be avoided if other more "formal' or "mainstream" options are available.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by dudette » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:17 am

Guys, this thread is not just about "if it is good to be there" since I know this already, but it is more like "Is this part of Karma-Kagyu" (you told me that this is not the case)? if not then is there procedure to fight this within Karma-Kagyu like contacting Karma-Kagyu's administration or whatever because I feel bad?
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:28 pm
Can you save yourself? Then what makes you think you can save others?
Why so many people here are so against helping them? I am not talking about saving them directly, but indirectly. I mean is it possible that there is no Karma-Kagyu's administration, organization or whatever where you can report incidents like these?

We are talking here about a real issue within karma-kangyu, so it is not about being a buddha who is enlightening people.
The case is more like there is man who passed out on the street from intoxication, and you normally call the ambulance. You don't stand there, and think to yourself "I could call the ambulance, and maybe help this person from possible death, but then can I help myself?", and you walk away (deep, but unpractical).

Actually, I was thinking to photocopy the section of a book or find a video where Ole Nydahl says that "if you choose the Karma-Kagyu then you are not allowed to read non-authorized books or books from different lineages because of declination of spiritual health" (I am not sure where he says this, but the people in the center who claim this will show me since they are nice, but confused). And send this to Karma-Kagyu's administration or whatever, and tell them "Your Lama who claims to be the voice of Karmapa teaches this within your lineage, and according to these sources "some sources which directly shows that Karma-Kagyu does not support sectarianism" this is not part of Karma-Kagyu, so clean up after yourself". I mean it just costs me nothing, and maybe it can actually make a difference (Since I think tibetan buddhism is alot more centralized than mayahana and theravada, so something like this is supposed to be easier to report).

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by emaho » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:29 am

dudette wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:00 pm
Why my local Karma-Kagyu's center chooses to isolate its members like a cult?
Ole Nydahl is highly controversial, even among the followers of Karmapa Thaye Dorje. If you want to practice in the Karma Kagyu lineage go look for other centers and teachers. Shamar Rinpoche's Bodhipath centers have already been mentioned, and there's the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala, the students of Gendun Rinpoche, they're also on the side of Thaye Dorje.

And no, you won't be able to save them. As long as somebody's mantra is "Lama Ole has said..." they're immune to criticism. Don't antagonize them. Just leave.

I don't think complaining about Nydahl is going to have the tiniest bit of effect, people have done that for decades and nobody gives a shit.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: my local Karma Kagyu center is closed cult?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:30 am

Why so many people here are so against helping them? I am not talking about saving them directly, but indirectly. I mean is it possible that there is no Karma-Kagyu's administration, organization or whatever where you can report incidents like these?

That is not really how Tibetan Buddhism (well, most Buddhism really) works, in my experience.

People of x, y, or z lineage might have the tacit endorsement of this or that lineage head or teacher, but that does not make that lineage head or teacher responsible for what every Dharma center associated with them does. They aren't popes.

It's one thing if abuse is happening, that should be made public regardless... but people acting wonky is just people acting wonky, you could bring it to someone's attention, but my guess is the people in question already know exactly how Nydahl's approach is. Diamond Way has a certain reputation, and likely nothing you'd say hasn't already been said.

In short, it's really outside the pay grade of most of people here to do anything about it, other than to avoid it if they choose to.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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