Dharmakaya aspect?

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AmidaB
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Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by AmidaB » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am

Tashi delek!

Garchen Rinpoche have repeatedly mentioned that Tara is the Nirmanakaya aspect and Vajrayogini is the Sambhogakaya aspect. So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect? It seems to me that I've missed something, because I've never heard the name of the third, apart from '....and the Dharmakaya aspect.'

Best,
ab

zerwe
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by zerwe » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:04 pm

I don't have a definitive answer and the Dharmakaya is not a form body per se, but I would imagine it is whomever this particular lineage recognizes as the primordial buddha.

Shaun :namaste:

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:34 pm

AmidaB wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
Tashi delek!

Garchen Rinpoche have repeatedly mentioned that Tara is the Nirmanakaya aspect and Vajrayogini is the Sambhogakaya aspect. So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect? It seems to me that I've missed something, because I've never heard the name of the third, apart from '....and the Dharmakaya aspect.'

Best,
ab
dharmakaya has no form. but it can be simbolized, generally as Samantabhadra & Samantabhadri, as Amithaba, etc.

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Matt J
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Matt J » Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:58 pm

I believe it is Vajradhara.

https://garchen.net/buddha-vajradhara/
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Rinchen Samphel
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:10 am

AmidaB wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect?
Whoever Mahamudra is.

florin
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by florin » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 am

Vajradhara still has attributes therefore is not a dharmakaya but a sambogakaya.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Matt J
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Matt J » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Not according to every Kagyu lama I know.
florin wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 am
Vajradhara still has attributes therefore is not a dharmakaya but a sambogakaya.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

zerwe
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by zerwe » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:25 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 am
Vajradhara still has attributes therefore is not a dharmakaya but a sambogakaya.
The Dhyani Buddha associated with the Dharmakaya serves the purpose of being an icon or mere representation of the truth body.
Some Sarma schools identify this as being Vajradhara and Nyingma utilize Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri.

Shaun :namaste:

florin
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by florin » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:30 pm

Matt J wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:30 pm
Not according to every Kagyu lama I know.
florin wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 am
Vajradhara still has attributes therefore is not a dharmakaya but a sambogakaya.
If they consider Vajradhara a dharmakaya aspect should he have any ornaments ?
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Lingpupa
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:26 am

florin wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:30 pm
Matt J wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:30 pm
Not according to every Kagyu lama I know.
florin wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 am
Vajradhara still has attributes therefore is not a dharmakaya but a sambogakaya.
If they consider Vajradhara a dharmakaya aspect should he have any ornaments ?
If he is viewed as a pointer to or expression of the dharmakaya (like Samantabhadra, or like the word "dharmakaya") then he (or she) can have any attributes that are skillfully appropriate in the particular context. Since, as you well know, the dharmakaya is not an "object" with a particular shape, colour, species or gender, any skillful representation at all is OK, provided we don't mistake it for the dharmakaya itself. You might as well ask why Samantabhadra is blue and in vajra posture, or why Samantabhadri is female.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

smcj
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:01 am

Are we assuming the Dharmakaya is an inert void? I don’t think that is accurate.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Grigoris
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:10 pm

From my limited understanding Amitabha is a Dharmakaya Buddha (or a Dhyani Buddha) in the same way that Aksobhya, Ratnasambhava, etc are.

But of one wanted a general representation of the Dharmakaya, then Vajradhara is definitely the one (for Kagyupa).
florin wrote:If they consider Vajradhara a dharmakaya aspect should he have any ornaments ?
This is the sort of confusion that arises when we try to generalise teachings across traditions.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

yeshegyaltsen
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:44 pm

There's no such thing as "Dhyani" Buddhas. That term was coined by an Englishman that was stationed in Nepal in the 1800's. It simply refers to the representatives of the five buddha families.

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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by jake » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:16 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:44 pm
There's no such thing as "Dhyani" Buddhas. That term was coined by an Englishman that was stationed in Nepal in the 1800's. It simply refers to the representatives of the five buddha families.
:good:

TrimePema
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by TrimePema » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:24 pm

AmidaB wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
Tashi delek!

Garchen Rinpoche have repeatedly mentioned that Tara is the Nirmanakaya aspect and Vajrayogini is the Sambhogakaya aspect. So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect? It seems to me that I've missed something, because I've never heard the name of the third, apart from '....and the Dharmakaya aspect.'

Best,
ab
Samantabhadri, consort of Samantabhadra; or Vajradhatuishvari, consort of Vajradhara.

Vajradhara is Dharmakaya.

But all these names are really referring to the same knowledge. It's just different expressions.

Orgyen
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Orgyen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:49 pm

The dharmakaya aspect should be prajñā-pāramitā or samantabhadri .

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Grigoris
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:40 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:44 pm
There's no such thing as "Dhyani" Buddhas. That term was coined by an Englishman that was stationed in Nepal in the 1800's. It simply refers to the representatives of the five buddha families.
Pedant! :tongue:

Strictly speaking, there are dhyani Buddhas now, even if it was just due to... ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PeterC
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by PeterC » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:15 am

AmidaB wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
Tashi delek!

Garchen Rinpoche have repeatedly mentioned that Tara is the Nirmanakaya aspect and Vajrayogini is the Sambhogakaya aspect. So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect? It seems to me that I've missed something, because I've never heard the name of the third, apart from '....and the Dharmakaya aspect.'

Best,
ab
Depends entirely on the specific practice being conferred. I just consulted my notes from the last time I heard HEGR give an empowerment of a female yidam and what he said then wasn't any of the answers on this thread.

The presence or absence of ornaments etc. doesn't really mean anything. Samantabhadra may not wear ornaments but he still has attributes - eyes, hair, etc. The dharmakaya forms in particular are simply representations. What is important is to grasp what they signify.

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lelopa
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by lelopa » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:25 am

AmidaB wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:52 am
Tashi delek!

Garchen Rinpoche have repeatedly mentioned that Tara is the Nirmanakaya aspect and Vajrayogini is the Sambhogakaya aspect. So, who is the Dharmakaya aspect? It seems to me that I've missed something, because I've never heard the name of the third, apart from '....and the Dharmakaya aspect.'

Best,
ab
Yum Chenmo is the Dharmakaya
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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lelopa
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Re: Dharmakaya aspect?

Post by lelopa » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:30 am

Orgyen wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:49 pm
The dharmakaya aspect should be prajñā-pāramitā or samantabhadri .
that's right!

Nyingmapas call the female Dharmakaya Samantabhadri - Kagyupas call her Prajnaparamita (Y.C. - Great Mother)
हूं हूं हूं
फट् फट् फट्

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