Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

smcj
Posts: 6949
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by smcj » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:04 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:59 am
The way I see it, Paramitayana is it a subset of Vajrayāna, just as Shravakayana & Pratyekayana are a subset of Mahayana/Paramitayana.

Even though it may not seem that way according to history/‘text-critical’ analysis.
Okay, explain please.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Sādhaka
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 am

If you look at it from the Nine Yana’s classification or Nine Ways of Bön; and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa is Mahāsaṅdhi taught by Acintyaprabhasa, also known as Khyeu Nangwa Dampa Samgyimikhyabpa....


The public-posting of the following article must have been approved by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu:


http://melong.com/twelve-primordial-masters/


Or I would hope so anyway.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

smcj
Posts: 6949
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by smcj » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:39 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 am
If you look at it from the Nine Yana’s classification or Nine Ways of Bön; and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa is Mahasandhi taught by Acintyaprabhasa, also known as Khyeu Nangwa Dampa Samgyimikhyabpa....


The public-posting of the following article must have been approved by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu:


http://melong.com/twelve-primordial-masters/


Or I would hope so anyway.
I don’t see how that supports your hypothesis.
But that’s ok. It’s a digression.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Sādhaka
Posts: 724
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:12 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 am
...and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa....

Implying that neither Shravakaya nor Paramitayana as Yanas were the ‘first’ Dharma teaching.

The implication being that Mahāsaṅdhi & Vajrayāna include the Paramitayana in its entirety; whereas the Paramitayana only hints at Vajrayāna & Mahāsaṅdhi.

smcj
Posts: 6949
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by smcj » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:27 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:12 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 am
...and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa....

Implying that neither Shravakaya nor Paramitayana as Yanas were the ‘first’ Dharma teaching.

The implication being that Mahāsaṅdhi & Vajrayāna include the Paramitayana in its entirety; whereas the Paramitayana only hints at Vajrayāna & Mahāsaṅdhi.
There’s always a back-and-forth between samsaric awareness and enlightened awareness. In fact one of the many definitions of “Dharma” is the connotation of enlightenment with unenlightened awareness.

For its part samsaric awareness usually has to work from outer to inner, from crude to subtle, confined to free, from blindness to seeing, etc. This can be seen in the 9 Yanas paradigm.

Enlightened awareness works from a position where it sees the Path in its entirety. It sees what the last step is for a being before awakening. It sees what is to be done 10 steps before awakening. And it sees what needs to be done lifetimes before awakening.

So when I read your citation, I understand it to mean “first” not in the chronological sense, but in the sense of the closest step to full awakening. The further away from full awakening a Teaching is you could call “later”.

Is that what you mean?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:17 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:33 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:55 am
florin wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:22 pm



"Kongtrul further points out that a practitioner of tantra must have three
kinds of confidence: confidence in the profound path of tantra upon
which one embarks; confidence in the person who leads one on the path,
an authentic master; and confidence in oneself as a practitioner.....
...............................................
Kongtrul contends that a person endowed with the first two kinds of
confidence should study the tantras and their commentaries. Once having
gained a sound understanding of the contents, the student should receive
an authentic initiation by which he or she assumes tantric pledges and vows.

The person is then ready to begin to cultivate the two phases of tantric practice:
the phase of creation and that of completion. Thus, all the stages of the
tantric path are contained in two steps: first, receiving initiation to bring
oneself to spiritual maturity and assume tantric pledges; and second, the
main element of the practice, cultivating the two phases of the path. It is by
following these two steps that one achieves the third kind of confidence.

TOK Book 8 part 3.
Translators introduction
Ok, I want Kongtrul's actual words, not what some introduction states. You asserted this was Kongtrul's position. As far as I can tell, this is not that.

Ok.
Here. Maybe you will be satisfied now.
Taken directly from the text itself.

Furthermore, such an individual must have three types of confidence,
the first two of which are the prerequisites for the third: [one,] confidence in what one is embarking upon, the profound tantra of the mantra way, which is the condition related to one’s focus; [two,] confidence in the person who leads one onto the path, a magnificent master, the causal condition;
and [three], based on those two, confidence in oneself as a practitioner of the path.
--------------
That being the case, a person who possesses the [first] two types of confidence
initially must learn the meaning of tantra. He or she therefore studies
the tantras and their commentaries. Once a sound understanding has
been achieved, that student should next begin cultivation of the two phases
[of practice] of the meaning of tantra, the precondition for which is to
receive, in an appropriate manner, an authentic initiation and to assume
properly the pledges and vows. All the stages of the mantric path are thereby
included in [two steps]: first, receiving an initiation to ripen oneself and assuming
pledges; then, the main element [of the practice], the cultivation of
the two phases of the path that effects liberation.


Book six part 4 chapter 11 " The Path".
I am still not sure about this. One reason is that to study the tantras and commentaries means a. One is literate, still rare in Tibet in 19th century; b. Has access to texts. C. Most unlikely, a literate person in in Tibet who has never ever received any empowerment. D. Each section of a major empowerment qualifies one to study different kinds of tantras, and not before. So this may indeed be JK’s position, but there is a lot of context missing here. So I still think it not sound advice, considering what the tantras themselves say about such matters.

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:19 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:27 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:12 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 am
...and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa....

Implying that neither Shravakaya nor Paramitayana as Yanas were the ‘first’ Dharma teaching.

The implication being that Mahāsaṅdhi & Vajrayāna include the Paramitayana in its entirety; whereas the Paramitayana only hints at Vajrayāna & Mahāsaṅdhi.
There’s always a back-and-forth between samsaric awareness and enlightened awareness. In fact one of the many definitions of “Dharma” is the connotation of enlightenment with unenlightened awareness.

For its part samsaric awareness usually has to work from outer to inner, from crude to subtle, confined to free, from blindness to seeing, etc. This can be seen in the 9 Yanas paradigm.

Enlightened awareness works from a position where it sees the Path in its entirety. It sees what the last step is for a being before awakening. It sees what is to be done 10 steps before awakening. And it sees what needs to be done lifetimes before awakening.

So when I read your citation, I understand it to mean “first” not in the chronological sense, but in the sense of the closest step to full awakening. The further away from full awakening a Teaching is you could call “later”.

Is that what you mean?
He means, chronologically speaking, that Dzogchen was the first teaching given in this mahakalpa.

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:17 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:33 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:55 am


Ok, I want Kongtrul's actual words, not what some introduction states. You asserted this was Kongtrul's position. As far as I can tell, this is not that.

Ok.
Here. Maybe you will be satisfied now.
Taken directly from the text itself.

Furthermore, such an individual must have three types of confidence,
the first two of which are the prerequisites for the third: [one,] confidence in what one is embarking upon, the profound tantra of the mantra way, which is the condition related to one’s focus; [two,] confidence in the person who leads one onto the path, a magnificent master, the causal condition;
and [three], based on those two, confidence in oneself as a practitioner of the path.
--------------
That being the case, a person who possesses the [first] two types of confidence
initially must learn the meaning of tantra. He or she therefore studies
the tantras and their commentaries. Once a sound understanding has
been achieved, that student should next begin cultivation of the two phases
[of practice] of the meaning of tantra, the precondition for which is to
receive, in an appropriate manner, an authentic initiation and to assume
properly the pledges and vows. All the stages of the mantric path are thereby
included in [two steps]: first, receiving an initiation to ripen oneself and assuming
pledges; then, the main element [of the practice], the cultivation of
the two phases of the path that effects liberation.


Book six part 4 chapter 11 " The Path".
I am still not sure about this. One reason is that to study the tantras and commentaries means a. One is literate, still rare in Tibet in 19th century; b. Has access to texts. C. Most unlikely, a literate person in in Tibet who has never ever received any empowerment. D. Each section of a major empowerment qualifies one to study different kinds of tantras, and not before. So this may indeed be JK’s position, but there is a lot of context missing here. So I still think it not sound advice, considering what the tantras themselves say about such matters.
"He or she therefore studies the tantras and their commentaries."

The word in red is not "studies." It is "mnyan pa," to hear. In other words, one is encouraged to go and hear about the general meaning of "tantra" in order have confidence. For example, like the words of encouragement at the end of the Lam rim, etc., which encourages faith in Vajrayāna and briefly explains its superiority to common Mahāyāna, but it certainly does not mean studying tantras and commentaries without guidance. Moreover, it can be read that what is being encouraged here is to study with meaning of the word "tantra" itself. There is no mention of "rgyud rnams," tantras in plural, but rather "rgyud" alone. So, I think you've misunderstood this point. It is certainly fine to study what the word "tantra" means and have confidence in this vehicle. But it is passingly strange to encourage people to study tantras and commentaries, and contradicts what Kongtrul says about the need for secrecy in Buddhist Ethics (TOK, book 5, pp. 261): "(7) To disclose secrets to immature persons means to reveal the secrets of profound bliss...to someone who has not been ripened by initiation..."

Now in fairness, Kongtrul assumes this means that one should not disclose Vajrayāna methods to people interested in practicing as a śrāvaka and so on. But other masters, such as Sakya Paṇḍita, have a very different idea. Sapan remarks that this seventh root downfall includes showing one's vajra and bell, etc. or performing ganacakras, etc. explaining secret mantra, etc. to anyone who does not possess empowerment.

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2094
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:05 pm

Just concerning the entire reading tantras before receiving empowerment etc. debate. I once met a guy online, on daobums I believe. And what he basically believed is that you dont need a teacher, nor a lineage. You can just read a tantra and practice. And he did practice. I think he had a thing for tummo and chose some random translation of chakrasamvara tantra on the internet. I don't know what happened to him, but I am sure of one thing. It most definitely did not lead to enlightenment or anywhere near. His ego got polished nicely tho.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

florin
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by florin » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 pm

So, I think you've misunderstood this point.
You couldn't help yourself could you ? How fine of you. I am not surprised.
After a few exchanges you always revert to personal and instead of sticking to debating the arguments you always feel the need to undermine your opponent by questioning their capacity and understanding.

As you constructed your argument instead of questioning my capacity to understand you should have directed your poison at Elio. Why don't you do that ? How clever.

But no thank you. I will stick to the way Elio translated these texts and i am happy with that. After all they have become classics and droves of practitioners have been helped by them.

User avatar
Virgo
Former staff member
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Virgo » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:29 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:22 pm

You couldn't help yourself could you ? How fine of you. I am not surprised.
After a few exchanges you always revert to personal and instead of sticking to debating the arguments you always feel the need to undermine your opponent by questioning their capacity and understanding.

As you constructed your argument instead of questioning my capacity to understand you should have directed your poison at Elio. Why don't you do that ? How clever.
Actually he addressed the points very well, so please be fair. Would you care to address any of the four points he raised in the first post?

The points he made about the specific langauge used in his second post are also very pertinent. Perhaps you would care to address any of those points?

Virgo

florin
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by florin » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:37 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:05 pm
Just concerning the entire reading tantras before receiving empowerment etc. debate. I once met a guy online, on daobums I believe. And what he basically believed is that you dont need a teacher, nor a lineage. You can just read a tantra and practice. And he did practice. I think he had a thing for tummo and chose some random translation of chakrasamvara tantra on the internet. I don't know what happened to him, but I am sure of one thing. It most definitely did not lead to enlightenment or anywhere near. His ego got polished nicely tho.
Sure there are definitely individuals like that.

However here the discussion is about individuals who have the two confidences in place already. Kongtrul's advice is that they should study the tantras and their commentaries to gain a proper understanding of the contents and then seek to receive authentic initiation.

florin
Posts: 1220
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by florin » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:40 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:29 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:22 pm

You couldn't help yourself could you ? How fine of you. I am not surprised.
After a few exchanges you always revert to personal and instead of sticking to debating the arguments you always feel the need to undermine your opponent by questioning their capacity and understanding.

As you constructed your argument instead of questioning my capacity to understand you should have directed your poison at Elio. Why don't you do that ? How clever.
Actually he addressed the points very well, so please be fair. Would you care to address any of the four points he raised in the first post?

The points he made about the specific langauge used in his second post are also very pertinent. Perhaps you would care to address any of those points?

Virgo

Are you his spokesperson ?
And why are you here ?

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:41 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:22 pm

After a few exchanges you always revert to personal and instead of sticking to debating the arguments you always feel the need to undermine your opponent by questioning their capacity and understanding.
We would not be having this debate if you had not cited Kongtrul to support your understanding.
As you constructed your argument instead of questioning my capacity to understand you should have directed your poison at Elio.
Translators, myself included, make difficult choices at times, intending only the best for their readers. This is the reason why I check the Tibetan, etc., to see if perhaps an unintended meaning accompanies an English word, with connotations that are not implied by the Tibetan word. People who do not know Tibetan do this all the time with English translations of Buddhist classics, causing themselves and others no amount of confusion.

In Tibetan, mnyan pa does not carry the implication of going to Amazon and ordering the Tsongkhapa's commentary on Cakrasamvara to study it prior to having received the Cakrasamvara empowerment. It means go and hear something about tantra from a qualified person so one can have confidence in tantra.
I will stick to the way Elio translated these texts and i am happy with that. After all they have become classics and droves of practitioners have been helped by them.
No doubt many people have been helped by these translations, but that does not mean one accepts every single English word in them at face value.

Why don't you go ask a Kagyu Khenpo who is expert in this text whether he thinks it means that an unripened person should just go and study any tantric commentary they like without first having received the empowerment, and see what kind of answer you get.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
Posts: 31174
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:42 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:37 pm
However here the discussion is about individuals who have the two confidences in place already. Kongtrul's advice is that they should study the tantras and their commentaries to gain a proper understanding of the contents and then seek to receive authentic initiation.
You should go ask a Khenpo before you continue to spread this advice.

User avatar
Virgo
Former staff member
Posts: 3825
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by Virgo » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:45 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:40 pm

Are you his spokesperson ?
No, I would just like to see people stick to the actual points. Do you think the poinst raised are not relevant?

Virgo

User avatar
tobes
Posts: 1676
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video

Post by tobes » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:12 am

I just came across:

DAVID HIGGINS AND MARTINA DRASZCZYK
MAHĀMUDRĀ AND THE MIDDLE WAY

POST-CLASSICAL KAGYÜ DISCOURSES ON MIND,EMPTINESS AND BUDDHA-NATURE

Which confirms my suspicion that we have to be extremely careful to avoid falling into sectarian polemics when discussing these questions. They argue that it was only after Shakya political hegemony waned that Kagyupa's could openly defend the legitimacy of their approach to Mahamudra and its connection to Madhyamaka.

And it goes both ways of course - when reading Kagyu literature, it's hard to miss how dialectically responsive much of it is (i.e. to prior critique).

Post Reply

Return to “Kagyu”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests