Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

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White Sakura
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Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

Is it correct to say to my son: "There are three vehicles, Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra"- withhout mentioning Dzogchen? I always have in mind that Mahamudra is derived from Dzogchen and I have as the three vehicles in mind: Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen. But we are Kagyu. Our Guru is Kagyu and Nyingma and also a Khenpo of Nyingma school. My son heard lot of teachings and received initiations as a kid, I did not know what he understood and why he wanted to hear that. But the Guru wanted it like that.These teachings were all given in the Gurus own Kagyu center and he teaches only Kagyu there.

Now my son is 21 and very busy and I just want to give him a basic understanding. I know that aged 18 he heard one teaching of our Guru in the Rigpa center, and there the Guru teaches Nyingma and taught on nine yanas this evening. I am sure my son has forgotten everything of that speech.
So just to give a base, is it ok to say just: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra- withhout mentioning Dzogchen, Longchempa and so on? My son heard teachings on the Mahamudra prayer of third Karmapa. New texts would be too much anyway.

I also noticed he only gets confused if somebody says that Theravadins to not accept Buddhanature. He has not the time to think about such topics. He needs easy answers, I mean only from the perspective of our Gurus opinion and maybe only Kagyu. Only what is important for his practise.
Danny
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Danny »

Forgive me, but I’m not clear if there’s a question in your post?
White Sakura
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

question is: Is is correct to introduce Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra as the three Yanas to a Kagyu student, without mentioning Dzogchen.
Danny
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Danny »

If it helps to not conflate mahamudra with dzogchen for clarity Of teaching purposes for the student.
White Sakura
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

Danny wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:07 pm If it helps to not conflate mahamudra with dzogchen for clarity Of teaching purposes for the student. That might be prudent.
thats why I want to introduce the three yanas as Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra. But I never heard or read anybody saying this. I only know: Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen.

But Malcom here even said, I should not read Dzogchen texts, since I have no introduction to Dzogchen by a master. And since we have introductions to Mahamudra it should be correct only to talk about it.
Danny
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Danny »

White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:11 pm

But Malcom here even said, I should not read Dzogchen texts, since I have no introduction to Dzogchen by a master. And since we have introductions to Mahamudra it should be correct only to talk about it.
That’s succinct, with no ambiguity.
White Sakura
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

Danny wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:45 pm
White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:11 pm

But Malcom here even said, I should not read Dzogchen texts, since I have no introduction to Dzogchen by a master. And since we have introductions to Mahamudra it should be correct only to talk about it.
That’s succinct, with no ambiguity.
I also see it like that but I hope more users will tell their opinion. But just to make that clear, I do not have an answer from Malcom to the question I have in that thread. If it is correct to introduce the three yanas as Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra.
Maybe I am not clear about this because our Guru is also a Khenpo of Nyingma School and a Dzogchen master. He is known as a great rime master but I see that this rime questions are really too much for my son at the moment.
Crazywisdom
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

[quote="White Sakura" post_id=543297 time=1594644919 user_id=10701]
question is: Is is correct to introduce Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra as the three Yanas to a Kagyu student, without mentioning Dzogchen.
[/quote]

Mahamudra is not a yana. Sutra and tantra. Tantra comes w oral instructions on Mahamudra there are four mudras in tantra. Maha is the fourth
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Generally speaking, more or less...

Mahamudra and dzogchen both fit within the category of Vajrayana, or, depending on the context, you can use the term Tantrayana. Basically, teachings based on the tantras.

Sutrayana refers to teachings based on the sutras.

Those two, with Hinayana, which does not specifically mean Theravada, contrary to what some believe)
Constitute what are commonly referred to as the three yanas, or “Triyana”
Be kindness
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LhakpaT
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by LhakpaT »

White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:55 pm question is: Is is correct to introduce Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra as the three Yanas to a Kagyu student, without mentioning Dzogchen.
Doesn't Three Yanas usually refer to 1. Hinayana, 2. Mahayana and 3. Vajrayana?
White Sakura
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:20 pm Hinayana, which does not specifically mean Theravada,
actually I do not know if me and my son heard Hinayana teachings. I think rather not. I mean the hinayana schools of Tibetan buddhism are not taught in Germany unless somebody engages in a systematic study program. But even in such a program maybe they start with the sutras..
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Norwegian »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:20 pm Those two, with Hinayana, which does not specifically mean Theravada, contrary to what some believe)
Constitute what are commonly referred to as the three yanas, or “Triyana”
Theravada is a Hinayana school, however.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
fckw
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by fckw »

Norwegian wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:41 pm Theravada is a Hinayana school, however.
Nope, that's wrong. (Although many ill-informed Vajrayana practitioners tend to believe so.) If you say Therevada is a Sutrayana school, then maybe we can find common ground, but the statement that Therevada is a Hinayana school is clearly wrong.
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Astus
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:15 am Is it correct to say to my son: "There are three vehicles, Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra"- withhout mentioning Dzogchen?
There are Sutrayana and Vajrayana, and within Vajrayana there are the Path of Means (thabs lam) and the Path of Liberation (grol lam). It is the path of liberation where you find sutra and essence Mahamudra, while the path of means includes tantra Mahamudra. At the same time, Hinayana includes the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana, while Mahayana has the common and uncommon paths; of those Hinayana and common Mahayana is Sutrayana, and the uncommon Mahayana is Vajrayana.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
White Sakura
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

I will only talk about tantra as the path of means. Just that he understands it is not everything just Buddhism.

May my son soon address to a Lama. :lol:
Maybe I need to find a short text to avoid becoming my son´s teacher.
Crazywisdom
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

Astus wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:39 pm
White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:15 am Is it correct to say to my son: "There are three vehicles, Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra"- withhout mentioning Dzogchen?
There are Sutrayana and Vajrayana, and within Vajrayana there are the Path of Means (thabs lam) and the Path of Liberation (grol lam). It is the path of liberation where you find sutra and essence Mahamudra, while the path of means includes tantra Mahamudra. At the same time, Hinayana includes the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana, while Mahayana has the common and uncommon paths; of those Hinayana and common Mahayana is Sutrayana, and the uncommon Mahayana is Vajrayana.
So now you accept Drikung Kagyu? Essence Mahamudra is not a yana, it is based on Mahamudra Tilaka Tantra and others. It is tantric.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

What is important is there is a tantric path that is outside the bounds of the four initiations and goes a different direction, but still has preliminaries, has Guru yoga where body is a deity, has Vajrasattva and mandala offerings. Ok? is that clear enough?
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

another point is that so called essence mahamudra is taught as an extention or an elaborated fourth empowerment whereby you are given the chance to make vipashyana your main practice, albeit you have done a ton of gnondro.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

White Sakura wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:57 pm I will only talk about tantra as the path of means. Just that he understands it is not everything just Buddhism.

May my son soon address to a Lama. :lol:
Maybe I need to find a short text to avoid becoming my son´s teacher.
It is called "Introduction to Mahamudra, the Co-Emergent Unification," by Lord Jigten Sumgon
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Astus
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:58 pmSo now you accept Drikung Kagyu? Essence Mahamudra is not a yana, it is based on Mahamudra Tilaka Tantra and others. It is tantric.
If we take Gampopa's word on it, Mahamudra per se is neither sutra nor tantra, but beyond them.

'In his texts, Gampopa distinguishes three main paths. (1) The paramitayana is called “the path of renunciation” and “the path of accumulation,” which relies on inferential analysis and is for those who have faith and are of dull faculties. (2) The path of mantra is labeled “the path of transformation” and “the path of means,” which relies on direct perception and is for those who are afflicted and of medium faculties. (3) The path of Mahamudra is “the path of prajna” and “the path of suchness,” which relies on blessing and is for those who are intelligent and of sharp faculties. He also describes these three paths as follows:

(1) As for taking inference as the path, after having scrutinized all phenomena through arguments [such as] being beyond singularity and multiplicity, one says that there is no [other] possibility [for phenomena to be] than these [possibilities that one has examined] and then posits that everything is empty. [This is the path of] inference.
(2) [The practice of] nadls, vayus, and tilakas,782 the repeated recitation of mantras, and so on, which are based on the generation stage of the deity’s body, make up the path of blessing.
(3) As for taking direct perceptions as the path, a genuine guru says that connate mind as such is the luminous dharmakaya. Through having been taught an unmistaken instruction of definitive meaning like that, one then takes native mind as the path, without separating the triad of view, conduct, and meditation in terms of this connate mind about which one has gained certainty within oneself.

Elsewhere, Gampopa explicitly states that Mahamudra is the highest path that actually transcends both sutra and tantra. All of this clearly suggests that Gampopa considered Mahamudra per se as a path that does not belong to either sutra or tantra but lies beyond both. In practice, most of Gampopa s preserved teachings consist primarily of sutra-based instructions and then conclude with Mahâmudrâ, either not teaching the path of mantra at all or mentioning it only in passing.'

(When the Clouds Part, p 192-193)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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