Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:41 pm
White Sakura wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:42 am Two accumulations, I understand that as practicing emptiness and compassion. It is important not to think: "Everything is empty, everything is illusion so there is no karma and I do not need to pay attention to good actions, ethical conduct."
it refers to merit and wisdom
Second: If somebody practices "only" sutra mahamudra, what exactly is the minimum of other practises to practice from the Varjayana teachings? I cannot imagine it can be practised without at least a short formal guru yoga.
The two accumulations in the kagyu mahamudra curriculum are gathered in the uncommon preliminaries, which themselves are vajrayana - they are all guru yoga of different forms. This is what Thrangu R, in the passage Astus quotes, says that practitioners of "sutra" mahamudra need to be doing. All roads lead to Rome.
understood this, since I studied an practiced Ngöndro for many years. And it is not so difficult to repeat it sometimes. But there is something that really scared me a bit away from higher Tantra. Just I am not sure if this higher yoginis I spoke to, are really so much higher. Their mind seems to be so very busy with limitless tantra imaginations. They know this yidam and that mudra and can discourse about the stick katwanga. And about black form of manjushri. But there was nothing in their words that made clear that what they are talking about is actually buddhism. Could have been hinduist tantra as well. I was not sure if they got the moon-reflexion analogy or the rainbow analogy. If they can visualize one tiny little bindu without building an inherently existing object in their minds.
I do not want to judge about other people, but it scared me, I could to become like that. Tantra is such a big world and it can easily become a phantasy world. I am not sure if I am developed enough to get the point. This nadis and bindus... you can imagine all that and the mind is building imaginations of inherently existing objects.
People know all the tantra classes and what is fourth empowerment, but cannot repeat the rainbow-analogy....
Last edited by White Sakura on Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

I talked again too much. Wanted to read...
muni
Posts: 4939
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by muni »

Two accumulations, I understand that as practicing emptiness and compassion. It is important not to think: "Everything is empty, everything is illusion so there is no karma and I do not need to pay attention to good actions, ethical conduct."
:smile:

"If you merely talk about the view of emptiness but at the same time behave inconsiderately, it is said that your conduct has become lost in the view. If you believe that, since everything is empty by nature, it is all right to do whatever you want and it makes no difference whether your actions are virtuous or non-virtuous, then your conduct has become “lost in the view.” All the great teachers say just the opposite — that the more you understand the view of emptiness, the more aware and careful you are regarding the law of cause and effect. Rinpoche"
Conversely, viewing the self as a mere convention or as a designated label for our dynamic stream of experience - consciousness in relation to the body and the world - is in harmony with the interdependent and impermanent nature of reality; and leads to a state of well-being grounded in wisdom, altruism, compassion, and inner freedom.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... he-self--2

Simplicity reveals the nature of the mind behind the veil of restless thoughts.
https://www.matthieuricard.org/en/blog/ ... plicity--2
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5107
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by conebeckham »

White Sakura wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:10 am I think we can close the debate on whether or whether not it is correct to practise Mahamudra without any form of transmission/empowerment by a master. Nobody here is doing so and nobody defends this position.

The question is, whether or whether not it is correct to practice sutra mahamudra "exclusively" in the Kagyu Lineage. If in this case one is a lower yogi is no interesting topic for me. I personally do not care for who calls whom "lower yogi" and deems himself a "higher yogi". It is different if very high masters discuss about that. I personally would be happy if I´d be just any yogi. And I think there are many other users in this thread who do not like to put themselves in the position to call somebody else: lower yogi.

so I´d rather discuss if it is just ok to practice only sutra mahamudra after any form of transmissions by legitimated Kagyu teachers.

To me, most interesting is the difference between Kongtruls statement and what Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche writes, a highly respected living master, who I expect to know the Kongtrul statement.

But: Does Kongtrul state it is not ok to do so? Why should it not be ok to be a "lower yogi"?
What most people mean when they say they practice “Sutra Mahamudra” is that they do not engage in the sadhana practices of the three roots as their focus, but instead devote their time on the cushion toward the special samatha and vipassana methods related to Mahamudra training. Kongtrul, and every Kagyu Lama I know, supports this approach. It’s usually part of three retreat curriculum, as well. Of course, most people combine this approach with ngondro, and especially guru yoga methods. This sort of path is in fact the most popular method for Western students.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:18 am
I'd suggest you read:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's Empowerment and the path of liberation
Kongtrul's Creation and Completion
Gyatrul R, The Generation Stage in Buddhist Tantra
Deity, Mantra and Wisdom

It's pretty important that you understand this stuff. Some lamas will do detailed explanations of it, some won't. But there's now enough material in translation to fill this gap.
Gyatrul Rinpoche seems to be a Nyingma Master. Can somebody recommend me a book on the same topic from a modern Kagyu Master? A link to an article would also be helpful for the beginning. I think it is better I read first a book from a modern master, then Kongtrul.
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2609
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

White Sakura wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:36 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:18 am
I'd suggest you read:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's Empowerment and the path of liberation
Kongtrul's Creation and Completion
Gyatrul R, The Generation Stage in Buddhist Tantra
Deity, Mantra and Wisdom

It's pretty important that you understand this stuff. Some lamas will do detailed explanations of it, some won't. But there's now enough material in translation to fill this gap.
Gyatrul Rinpoche seems to be a Nyingma Master. Can somebody recommend me a book on the same topic from a modern Kagyu Master? A link to an article would also be helpful for the beginning. I think it is better I read first a book from a modern master, then Kongtrul.
Kongtrul’s book is excellent and a good place to start, it’s no harder than something modern. However what you probably won’t find is a kagyu master who doesn’t do any nyingma practices or vice versa these days
White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

PeterC wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:51 pm
White Sakura wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:36 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:18 am
I'd suggest you read:
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's Empowerment and the path of liberation
Kongtrul's Creation and Completion
Gyatrul R, The Generation Stage in Buddhist Tantra
Deity, Mantra and Wisdom

It's pretty important that you understand this stuff. Some lamas will do detailed explanations of it, some won't. But there's now enough material in translation to fill this gap.
Gyatrul Rinpoche seems to be a Nyingma Master. Can somebody recommend me a book on the same topic from a modern Kagyu Master? A link to an article would also be helpful for the beginning. I think it is better I read first a book from a modern master, then Kongtrul.
Kongtrul’s book is excellent and a good place to start, it’s no harder than something modern. However what you probably won’t find is a kagyu master who doesn’t do any nyingma practices or vice versa these days
ok thanks.So you wanted to say it is no problem to read the book from the Nyingma-Master as well? My Guru is Ringu Tulku Rinpoche. He is a Kagyu and Nyingma master. But he teaches for both schools differently. As far as I understand things, my empowerments are all "Kagyu-style". He teaches differently dependent on if he teaches in a Kagyu and Nyingma Center.

Other question:I don´t know who it was, maybe you, who often repeated: Fourth empowerment. Do you mean an Anutarayogatantra empowerment?
Crazywisdom
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

Introduction to Mahamudra, The Co-Emergent Union, by Lord Jigten Sumgon

Best book on this topic.
White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

I ordered the Kongtrul book.
White Sakura
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by White Sakura »

I have just some other questions in Mind. Here is that text from Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche about the four Dharmas of Gampopa.

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/4dharmas.pdf

He discusses the nine stages of Shamata here very elaborately for such a short article. (In chapter three, the second Dharma of Gampopa.)
Is it right that this nine stages of Shamatha are a teaching that is taught as the first step for practitioners of Sutra-Mahamudra?
So this eleborate teaching on the nine stages of Shamatha, can this be seen as something specific for Karma Kagyu Lineage?
There is nothing about tantra in this teaching from Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche on the four Dharmas of Gampopa.

How does a tantra Mahamudra practitioner practise Shamatha? For sutra Mahamudra practitioners Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche mentions Shamatha as a spefic practise. Does he refer here to this nine stages Shamatha practise?

I often heard, if one practices a Sadhana, then Shamatha is included. As one tries to hold the mind as single-pointed as possible.
Post Reply

Return to “Kagyu”