An interesting quote from HHST

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by MiphamFan » Thu May 19, 2016 2:53 pm

smcj wrote: It is clear that the Dharmakaya has no thought processes. Depending on how the Rupakayas are explained that can apply to them too, thus the zombie idea. However rather than zombie/dead-like, enlightened masters are more awake than you or I. So I'm not of that camp.
If you don't like the term "philosophical zombie", fine, but the Jñānālokālaṁkāra makes it perfectly clear that the forms of Tathagatas which appear to sentient beings have no mental constructs. This is not from some sastric interpretation, it's directly from the sutra itself, Buddhavacana. The appearances of the Tathagatas are compared to reflections, sound being produced without a physical instrument etc in the sutra.

Buddhas don't even need to think "I will teach sentient being A Mahayana, I will teach sentient being B Sravakayana". They just teach and different beings perceive their teachings differently.
“It is as follows: Mañjuśrī, here in Jambūdvīpa the rays of the sun only shine at first on the great king of mighty mountains. After that, they shine on the Cakravāḍa and Mahācakravāḍa ranges. After that, they shine on the elevated regions of the earth. After that, they shine on the low-lying regions of the earth here in Jambūdvīpa.

“Yet those sun rays, Mañjuśrī, do not form mental constructs or concepts. They do not think or ponder. The rays of the sun, Mañjuśrī, are free from mentality, mind, and consciousness; they are unborn and unceasing, without characteristics, free from characteristics; [F.285.a] without mental placement, free from mental placement; without elaboration, free from elaboration; without torment, free from torment; not abiding hither, not abiding thither; not high, not low; not bound, not liberated; not knowing, not ignorant; not afflictions, not free from afflictions; not speaking the truth, not speaking falsely; not over there, not here; not on dry land, not in the stream; not the domain of reasoning, not the domain of non-reasoning; neither with form, nor formless. Yet, Mañjuśrī, due to the distinction of higher, middling, and lower places on the earth, the light shines differently, at higher, middling, and lower degrees causing varied shades. [58]

“In the same way, Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata, the Arhat, the Perfect and Complete Buddha does not form mental constructs or concepts. He does not think or ponder. Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata is free from mind, mentality, and consciousness. He is unborn and unceasing. He is without characteristics, free from characteristics; without mental placement, free from mental placement; without elaboration, free from elaboration; without torment, free from torment; not abiding hither, not abiding thither; not high, not low; not bound, not liberated; not knowing, not ignorant; not afflictions, not free from afflictions; not speaking the truth, not speaking falsely; not over there, not here; not on the shore, nor on the non-shore; not on low land, nor on non-low land; not on dry land, nor on non-dry land; not in the stream, nor in the non-stream; not on the plains.

“He is not omniscient, not non-omniscient; [F.285.b] not reasoning, not non-reasoning; not acting, not non-acting; neither behavior nor non-behavior; neither mindful nor unmindful; neither with intention nor free from intention; neither mind nor without mind; neither originated nor unoriginated;25 neither name nor no name; neither form nor no form; neither verbal expression nor non-verbal expression; neither a possible object of imputation, nor not a possible object of imputation; neither visible nor invisible; neither a conducive way nor not a conducive way; neither leading along the way, nor not leading along the way; neither having obtained the result, nor not having obtained the result; neither a concept, nor not a concept; neither free from concepts, nor not free from concepts. [60]

“Similarly, Mañjuśrī, the rays of awareness from the round sun of the Tathāgata shine brilliantly in the three realms, unimpeded throughout the dharmadhātu with neither edge nor center. Once they shine, they first descend upon the bodies of bodhisattvas, whose aspirations are like the great lord of mountains. After that, they descend upon the bodies of those who set forth on the Vehicle of Pratyekabuddhas. Then they descend upon the bodies of those who have set forth on the Hearers’ Vehicle. After that, they descend upon the body of sentient beings with wholesome aspirations, according to their specific inclinations. After that, the rays of awareness from the round sun of the Tathāgata even descend upon the body of those sentient beings with mental continua that are stuck in what is wrong.26 The rays assist all these beings by producing causes for what will come later, and increase their wholesome dharmas.

“In that respect, Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata [F.286.a] is everywhere the same, neutral, without concepts, and does not make any distinctions. Moreover, Mañjuśrī, the round sun of the Tathāgata’s awareness does not think, ‘I will teach this person the vast Dharma, but I will not teach that one.’ Neither does it have the concept, ‘This person has vast beliefs, that one has middling beliefs. This one has belief in the Hearers’ Vehicle. This one has wholesome aspirations while that one is low, with wrong aspirations.’ [62]

“Mañjuśrī, the round sun of the Tathāgata’s awareness does not think, ‘This sentient being has vast beliefs, so I will teach him the Great Vehicle. This one has middling beliefs, so I will teach him the Pratyekabuddha Vehicle. This one has belief in the Hearers’ Vehicle, so I will teach him the Hearers’ Vehicle. I shall come to understand the aspirations of sentient beings with either wholesome or unwholesome aspirations, then purify them and straighten up their view. Even for sentient beings stuck in what is wrong, I shall teach a fitting dharma.’

“The light of the rays of awareness from the round sun of the Tathāgata does not have any such concepts. And why? Because the light of the rays of awareness from the round sun of the Tathāgata has cut off all constructs, concepts, and elaborations. On the other hand, Mañjuśrī, because of variations in sentient beings’ inclinations to wholesome intent, the light of the rays of awareness from the round sun of the Tathāgata is varied too.” [64] [B.2]
I don't even see how personal or impersonal enters into this. That is a purely Abrahamic concept. Buddhas appear as persons to persons, as devas to devas, to animals as animals, all depending on the karma of the perceiving sentient being. Buddhas themselves are beyond the characteristics of personality (5 skandhas etc).

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smcj
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Thu May 19, 2016 3:39 pm

Buddhas don't even need to think "I will teach sentient being A Mahayana, I will teach sentient being B Sravakayana". They just teach and different beings perceive their teachings differently.
Exactly so. And since I'm a lower-yana practitioner, in the appearance of my Buddhas-gurus they have mental activity, but not obscurations.

Since various levels are spontaneously taught to various capacities, which level I personally can relate to is not a point of contention. Discussion, certainly, but not contention.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by MiphamFan » Thu May 19, 2016 3:54 pm

Yes of course my gurus seem to me to have mental activity too, but I view it as just an appearance resulting from my karma, not something real and something to cling to. If you cling on to the idea that your gurus really have mental activity, you are like the pretas who think the river is made of pus
Rongzompa, Establishing Appearances as Divine wrote: Hungry ghosts perceive rivers to be filled with pus. Some among them will also have heard that human beings perceive water. Among them, some may, thus, believe that pus is the genuine entity and that water is an imputed form. Others may believe that pus is an impure appearance and that, therefore, water, as perceived by humans, is what genuinely [exists]. The [latter group] will argue, saying, “Friends, this river, filled with pus, as perceived in common by us hungry ghosts, is, in fact, a river of water as perceived by humans. For, if somebody who has free access to that water dedicates the water to us and gives it to us, we hungry ghosts will also perceive, and experience, it as water. It is just like that water we have obtained from time to time in the past.” With respect to the establishment of relation, such establishment is, in this case, flawless: “That which is dedicated and given by the one who has free access to water, and that which, thus, comes to be experienced as water, is indeed water, just like the water that we have heard of from time to time.” Thus the statement “If those with free access to water dedicate it and then give it to us, we experience it as water” is established with certain pervasion.

In the same way, some individuals will have heard that the appearances of bodies and enjoyments, as commonly perceived by humans, can be perceived by people of complete purity as a divine maṇḍala. Moreover, they also know that, according to Secret Mantra, [everything] is taught to be the divine maṇḍala. Some will argue that the appearances of ordinary bodies and enjoyments are genuine entities, while the seeing of divinities is an imputation and so on. Others will believe ordinary bodies and enjoyments to be impure appearances and that divinity as seen by pure individuals and as renowned in the Secret Mantra is therefore the genuine characteristic of entities.

The [latter group] will say, “Dear friends, these appearances of ordinary bodies and enjoyments commonly perceived by us human beings are, in fact, the divine maṇḍala as perceived by pure individuals. If an individual who has free access to the field of pure experience grants us accomplishment, then, even to us human beings, those objects will appear as divinities and we will experience them as such. It is just like when, from time to time in the past, some of us human beings gained accomplishment and thereby achieved the divine field of experience.” If one were to demonstrate the relation, then it would prove to be a faultless one. Again, when someone who has gained free access to the field of pure experience grants accomplishment, that which is then enjoyed as the divine field of experience is indeed divine, just like the divine field of experience achieved by an accomplished individual. As for this ordinary field of experience, if individuals who have free access to the completely
pure field of experience grant accomplishment, then there will be an experience of divine objects. The proof is thus established with certain pervasion.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by MiphamFan » Thu May 19, 2016 4:05 pm

The idea of the guru-yoga is that if you see them as a Buddha you get the blessings of a Buddha. If you see them as a bodhisattva you get the blessings of a bodhisattva. If as an ordinary man, no blessings at all.

What level their actual realisation is may or may not be the same as your view of them, either greater or lesser. But there is benefit in seeing them as a Buddha, even if they are not. It's up to you.
This is what you yourself, smcj, said in another thread. If you view your gurus as having mental activity, you are actually not viewing them as Buddhas at all.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Thu May 19, 2016 4:09 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
The idea of the guru-yoga is that if you see them as a Buddha you get the blessings of a Buddha. If you see them as a bodhisattva you get the blessings of a bodhisattva. If as an ordinary man, no blessings at all.

What level their actual realisation is may or may not be the same as your view of them, either greater or lesser. But there is benefit in seeing them as a Buddha, even if they are not. It's up to you.
This is what you yourself, smcj, said in another thread. If you view your gurus as having mental activity, you are actually not viewing them as Buddhas at all.
Seeing them as a high level Bodhisattva is good enough for me.

The Dharmakaya is beyond thought. My sadhanas have sections where the deities acknowledge and approve of the practice, indicating discernment. I feel comfortable with that.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 19, 2016 7:00 pm

smcj wrote:The Dharmakaya is beyond thought.
And beyond non-thought too. ;)
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