An interesting quote from HHST

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smcj
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 12:31 pm

Ok, so in 20 posts we have gone from "everybody knows that", to "It has something to do with the Sambogakaya" and "I think the Uttaratantra talks about it", to nobody has read the Uttaratantra and understood it, to the only guy in the room that actually has studied the Uttaratantra not wanting to talk about it (apparently).

Can we call this a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=22444&hilit=Dunning

Just sayin'...
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 12:44 pm

Never read the Uttaratantrasastra but I find the Ornament of the Light of Awareness describes this perfectly clearly:

It is as follows: Mañjuśrī, imagine that this wide earth were made entirely of beryl, so that in that beryl one could see reflections of the abode of the Thirty-Three; of Śakra, lord of the gods; and of his Palace of Victory. [F.279.a] And imagine that Śakra, lord of the gods, could be seen there, playing and enjoying himself with the five divine objects of pleasure. [22]
“At that time, the gods might call out to all the men, women, boys, and girls of Jambūdvīpa, ‘Come here, men and women! Look at Śakra, lord of the gods, as he is playing, enjoying, and amusing himself with the five divine objects of pleasure in his Palace of Victory. Come, all men and women, offer gifts and make merit. Take up discipline and abide by it. Then you shall also get to play, enjoy, and amuse yourself in such Palaces of Victory. You will become like Śakra himself and will come to possess wealth like his. The lord of the gods, Śakra, has all divine enjoyments, and so shall you.’
“Then, Mañjuśrī, all those men, women, girls, and boys, who could see the abode of the Thirty-Three along with Śakra, lord of the gods, and his Palace of Victory reflected in the wide earth of beryl, would fold their hands toward this reflection. They would scatter flowers and offer perfumes toward it, saying, ‘May we also obtain such a body as that of Śakra, lord of the gods; may we also play, enjoy, and amuse ourselves in the Palace of Victory, just like Śakra, lord of the gods.’ [24]
“However, those beings would not understand that this would merely be a reflection in the wide earth of beryl, a reflection occurring due to the complete purity of the beryl, wherein the abode of the Thirty-Three, along with Śakra, lord of the gods, and his Palace of Victory, could be seen. [F.279.b]
5
The Ornament of the Light of Awareness
Wishing for the state of Śakra, they would then offer gifts and make merit. They would take up discipline and abide by it. They would then dedicate the roots of what is wholesome toward birth in that reflection of the abode of the Thirty-Three.
“Mañjuśrī, in that wide earth of beryl there would, of course, be no abode of the Thirty-Three, and neither would there be a Palace of Victory, or Śakra, lord of the gods. However, due to the purity of the great beryl, the abode of the Thirty-Three along with the Palace of Victory and Śakra, lord of the gods would all be visible. Non-existent, non-arisen, and non-ceased, their reflections would be seen because of the purity of the great beryl. [26]
“In the same way, Mañjuśrī, it is due to the complete purity of the mind, as well as due to proper cultivation, that sentient beings see the body of a tathāgata. Mañjuśrī, it is due to the power of the Tathāgata that sentient beings see him. And still he remains non-existent, non-arisen, and non-ceased. He is neither existence nor non-existence, neither visible nor invisible, neither worldly nor unworldly, neither an object of thinking nor not an object of thinking, neither existent nor non-existent.
“It is so, Mañjuśrī, that sentient beings focus on the reflection of the Tathāgata and offer it flowers, perfumes, garments, and jewels while making this aspiration: ‘May we also become like the Tathāgata, the Arhat, the Perfect and Complete Buddha.’ Wishing for a buddha’s awareness, [F.280.a] they offer gifts and make merit. They take up discipline and abide by it. Then they dedicate that root of what is wholesome toward obtaining a tathāgata’s awareness. [28]
“It is as follows: Mañjuśrī, the reflection of Śakra, ruler of the gods, on that wide earth made of beryl does not move. Nor does it think, elaborate, construct, or conceptualize. It is not a construct, not a concept, inconceivable, and not a mental placement. It is peaceful and cool, non-arising, non-cessation, not seen, not heard, not smelt, not tasted, not touched, not a sign, not a cognition, and not something that can be made known.
“In the same way, Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata, the Arhat, the Perfect and Complete Buddha does not move. Nor does he think, elaborate, construct, or conceptualize. He is not a construct, not a concept, inconceivable, not a mental placement. He is peaceful and cool, non-arising and non-cessation, not seen, not heard, not smelt, not tasted, not touched, not a sign, not a cognition, and not something that can be made known.
“Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata is in the realm of non-arising. On the other hand, he appears in the world as a reflected image. According to the beliefs of sentient beings he displays diverse appearances and diverse lifespans. He appears among sentient beings who have become fitting receptacles for awakening thanks to their maturation and belief. These sentient beings then hear the Dharma according to their dispositions and beliefs. According to their dispositions they understand the three vehicles [F.280.b], and according to their dispositions they obtain belief.


This sutra has many more examples, you can read it here: http://read.84000.co/old-app/#!ReadingR ... -047-002/4

In general for me personally I've been finding reading sastras pretty difficult but going back to the sutras or sutras referenced in the sastras makes things a lot clearer.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 1:18 pm

:good:

The last little bit was very Uttaratantra-esque.



“Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata is in the realm of non-arising. On the other hand, he appears in the world as a reflected image. According to the beliefs of sentient beings he displays diverse appearances and diverse lifespans. He appears among sentient beings who have become fitting receptacles for awakening thanks to their maturation and belief. These sentient beings then hear the Dharma according to their dispositions and beliefs. According to their dispositions they understand the three vehicles [F.280.b], and according to their dispositions they obtain belief.

It's worth it to read it a couple times.

However, given that this type of thing is what we are supposed to be aspiring to with our practice, you'd think we'd be clearer about it.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 18, 2016 1:26 pm

smcj wrote::good:

The last little bit was very Uttaratantra-esque.



“Mañjuśrī, the Tathāgata is in the realm of non-arising. On the other hand, he appears in the world as a reflected image. According to the beliefs of sentient beings he displays diverse appearances and diverse lifespans. He appears among sentient beings who have become fitting receptacles for awakening thanks to their maturation and belief. These sentient beings then hear the Dharma according to their dispositions and beliefs. According to their dispositions they understand the three vehicles [F.280.b], and according to their dispositions they obtain belief.

It's worth it to read it a couple times.

However, given that this type of thing is what we are supposed to be aspiring to with our practice, you'd think we'd be clearer about it.
Just coz you can't quote page numbers doesn't mean you don't understand/know it.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 1:38 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Just coz you can't quote page numbers doesn't mean you don't understand/know it.

Ok, fair enough. In your own words what was HHST saying?

By attaining Enlightenment, which we call the Great Liberation, you are not only free from suffering but you can also help all sentient beings immensely.

Once we achieve Enlightenment/Great Liberation, how are going to be benefitting beings immensely? How are those that have already achieved it benefitting us presently?
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 2:08 pm

I don't about you but I thought the notion of Buddha activities was already clear from listening to my teachers' oral explanations. Sutras like the above just helped to clarify it more.

Maybe you found it unclear because you are still attached to a monistic idea of tathagathagarbha.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 2:12 pm

MiphamFan wrote:I don't about you but I thought the notion of Buddha activities was already clear from listening to my teachers' oral explanations. Sutras like the above just helped to clarify it more.

Maybe you found it unclear because you are still attached to a monistic idea of tathagathagarbha.

Ok, your turn then. If the idea is clear to you, can you explain it in your own words? Feel free to include the understanding you have gleaned from your teacher's oral instructions.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 2:31 pm

I don't see what is there to be clear or unclear about.

Buddhas spontaneously manifest in different forms to guide beings to awakening, depending on those beings' karmic seeds. It's not a conscious volitional act like a human deliberately helping a beggar for example; Buddhas already pass beyond volition and other mental formations, it just comes from knowing the nature of reality.

There is a quote attributed to Padmasambhava IIRC, saying that the compassion of the Buddhas is impartial, like the rays of the sun illuminating the whole earth, but sraddha is like a magnifying glass that focusses it. I understand it to be pretty much the same idea; Buddhas emit their compassion to all beings but we all have different capabilities (lenses) for different manifestations of that compassion. Maybe you have a plastic lens, I have a glass lens, maybe someone else has a prism, a crystal etc, which all causes the light to manifest differently. That's why there are 9 yanas for different capacities.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 2:41 pm

MiphamFan wrote:I don't see what is there to be clear or unclear about.

Buddhas spontaneously manifest in different forms to guide beings to awakening, depending on those beings' karmic seeds. It's not a conscious volitional act like a human deliberately helping a beggar for example; Buddhas already pass beyond volition and other mental formations, it just comes from knowing the nature of reality.

Ok, so a couple of questions. What kinds of forms are you talking about? Human forms? Something else? Non-physical or just physical?

Is this true while the particular being is alive? Is it true after he passes?
It just comes from knowing the nature of reality.

How is this different than saying it just is the nature of reality?
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 2:48 pm

All kinds of forms, sentient and non-sentient. IIRC there are various stories in the sutras where Buddhas manifest as physical objects.

Life and death are meaningless to Buddhas, first bhumi bodhisattvas already experience no pain from death. Nirmanakayas are essentially puppets according to Gorampa (from Malcolm)

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby MiphamFan » Wed May 18, 2016 2:51 pm

smcj wrote:
Is this true while the particular being is alive? Is it true after he passes?
It just comes from knowing the nature of reality.

How is this different than saying it just is the nature of reality?


It might be the nature of reality but until your consciousness fully recognises that for itself, it still does not manifest as Buddhahood .

I am no authority on this so I won't speak further but I will recommend you on ChNN's Teachings on how he explains there exists the potentiality for Buddhahood but it is not realised by sentient beings. I.e. sentient beings can potentially attain Buddhahood but Buddhahood does not manifest immediately otherwise we would all be Buddhas already. Here is a post by Malcolm dealing with this: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=21561&p=318622&hilit=Malcolm#p318621

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed May 18, 2016 4:45 pm

Malcolm,

Does infinite bodhicitta result in an infinite Sambhogakaya?

That's my understanding.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 18, 2016 5:23 pm

smcj wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Just coz you can't quote page numbers doesn't mean you don't understand/know it.
Ok, fair enough. In your own words what was HHST saying?
I am quite sure that you know what he is saying. It is just the same old Mahayana rhetoric. I think that your issue may be that you do not agree with the notion. Am I correct?
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby anjali » Wed May 18, 2016 6:05 pm

smcj wrote:I found this interesting.
If you are in liberation, you cannot be active, you cannot help other beings. You yourself will be completely free from suffering but there is nothing you can do for others. By attaining Enlightenment, which we call the Great Liberation, you are not only free from suffering but you can also help all sentient beings immensely. That is the main difference.

Since no one has directly asked you, What do you find interesting about this quote?
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 6:42 pm

anjali wrote:
smcj wrote:I found this interesting.
If you are in liberation, you cannot be active, you cannot help other beings. You yourself will be completely free from suffering but there is nothing you can do for others. By attaining Enlightenment, which we call the Great Liberation, you are not only free from suffering but you can also help all sentient beings immensely. That is the main difference.

Since no one has directly asked you, What do you find interesting about this quote?

First off, it is the goal we are supposed to be aspiring towards. I think we should be clear on what that is.

Secondly, if there are Buddhas out there offering actual help, I want to know what I have to do to accept it.

If you thought that kind of help/"Buddha Activity" was real wouldn't you want that too?

Certainly all that is enough to warrant starting a thread! :rolling:
Last edited by smcj on Wed May 18, 2016 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby tomamundsen » Wed May 18, 2016 6:56 pm

smcj wrote:
Secondly, if there are Buddhas out there offering actual help, I want to know what I have to do to accept it.


Devotion, supplication, etc.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby Virgo » Wed May 18, 2016 7:06 pm

smcj wrote:Secondly, if there are Buddhas out there offering actual help, I want to know what I have to do to accept it.

If you thought that kind of help/"Buddha Activity" was real wouldn't you want that too?


Mantra generally. Although that is not the only way.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 8:32 pm

You guys have balls to cop to believing in buddhas that help. That's not politically correct here at DW. :bow:
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 18, 2016 8:34 pm

smcj wrote:You guys have balls to cop to believing in buddhas that help. That's not politically correct here at DW. :bow:


Buddhas help in the same way the sun shines, impartially and without any thought.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 18, 2016 8:35 pm

smcj wrote:You guys have balls to cop to believing in buddhas that help. That's not politically correct here at DW. :bow:



I think most people here believe in that.

The conversation gets trickier when you try to define in what ways they can "help", but I would wager that most practitioners here believe that there are serious blessings to be had. The trouble is that inevitably the conversation turns to whether or not enlightened beings can take away or take on the karma of others, the answer to that usually seems to be "no", and some people take this to mean there is no help.
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