An interesting quote from HHST

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smcj
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 8:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:You guys have balls to cop to believing in buddhas that help. That's not politically correct here at DW. :bow:
Buddhas help in the same way the sun shines, impartially and without any thought.
...which is 100% antithetical to the idea that the universe is a fundamentally cold, cruel, impersonal place and that we are totally on our own.
JD wrote:The conversation gets trickier when you try to define in what ways they can "help", but I would wager that most practitioners here believe that there are serious blessings to be had. The trouble is that inevitably the conversation turns to whether or not enlightened beings can take away or take on the karma of others, the answer to that usually seems to be "no", and some people take this to mean there is no help.
So maybe we should have a conversation about exactly that. :shrug:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 18, 2016 8:53 pm

...which is 100% antithetical to the idea that the universe is a fundamentally cold, cruel, impersonal place and that we are totally on our own
None of us would be here doing our thang' with Dharma if that were so. We are really fortunate, on many levels.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed May 18, 2016 9:06 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:The trouble is that inevitably the conversation turns to whether or not enlightened beings can take away or take on the karma of others, the answer to that usually seems to be "no", and some people take this to mean there is no help.
Vajrasattva can do that ;)

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 18, 2016 9:07 pm

smcj wrote:...which is 100% antithetical to the idea that the universe is a fundamentally cold, cruel, impersonal place...
The universe is neither cold nor hot, neither cruel or kind. It is impersonal though (ie we are not the center of the universe).
...and that we are totally on our own.
The Sangha is one of the three jewels for a reason.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 18, 2016 9:23 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The trouble is that inevitably the conversation turns to whether or not enlightened beings can take away or take on the karma of others, the answer to that usually seems to be "no", and some people take this to mean there is no help.
Vajrasattva can do that ;)

I don't think that's true technically, it's more like the blessing speed up and lessen the severity of ripening karma, isn't it?
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed May 18, 2016 9:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:The trouble is that inevitably the conversation turns to whether or not enlightened beings can take away or take on the karma of others, the answer to that usually seems to be "no", and some people take this to mean there is no help.
Vajrasattva can do that ;)

I don't think that's true technically, it's more like the blessing speed up and lessen the severity of ripening karma, isn't it?
I've been taking it literally. Of course , I could be wrong...

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 10:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:...which is 100% antithetical to the idea that the universe is a fundamentally cold, cruel, impersonal place...
The universe is neither cold nor hot, neither cruel or kind. It is impersonal though (ie we are not the center of the universe).
Not so impersonal if Guru Rinpoche or Green Tara is there to help.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Wed May 18, 2016 10:51 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I don't think that's true technically, it's more like the blessing speed up and lessen the severity of ripening karma, isn't it?
I've been taking it literally. Of course , I could be wrong...
I think you're both right. I think of it like a chapter 13 bankruptcy, where you get to pay off your debts for pennies on the dollar. Unfortunately the longer the debt has been ripening the less of a discount you get.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Rakz » Wed May 18, 2016 11:16 pm

smcj wrote: Once we achieve Enlightenment/Great Liberation, how are going to be benefitting beings immensely? How are those that have already achieved it benefitting us presently?
It seems the only way they benefit beings is by laying down the path to liberation which was already done around 2500 years ago. I don't really see how else they are benefiting society being the hellhole that it is for a lot of people.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by AlexMcLeod » Wed May 18, 2016 11:47 pm

smcj wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I don't think that's true technically, it's more like the blessing speed up and lessen the severity of ripening karma, isn't it?
I've been taking it literally. Of course , I could be wrong...
I think you're both right. I think of it like a chapter 13 bankruptcy, where you get to pay off your debts for pennies on the dollar. Unfortunately the longer the debt has been ripening the less of a discount you get.
Of course an enlightened being can assist in that way. There are ways to do this without even their help because karma exists only in the mind stream. But doing it on your own is a very daft thing to do. Even I wouldn't do it, and I do all sorts of crazy things. If an enlightened being like Vajrasattva is willing to help you out, by all means, take the help. Most people don't even know they have such a problem. Consider how blessed we are that we do, AND have access to relief.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by MiphamFan » Thu May 19, 2016 1:52 am

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas help in the same way the sun shines, impartially and without any thought.
...which is 100% antithetical to the idea that the universe is a fundamentally cold, cruel, impersonal place and that we are totally on our own.
You have this tendency to take isolated bits of information and spin it off on some wild tangent. When has anyone here ever said the universe is a fundamentally cold and cruel place?

And again, the idea that Buddhas are personal is still wrong, just read the whole sutra I linked above it's not very long. They manifest as personal according to the karma of our perception -- that does not mean they consciously act as persons do. To animals, to aliens, to devas, to hell-beings, to pretas they all manifest differently in a spontaneous way.

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 19, 2016 6:59 am

smcj wrote:Not so impersonal if Guru Rinpoche or Green Tara is there to help.
They are just representations of the enlightened qualities of our own (enlightened) mind. Realistically the only person that can help you, is you. You are the lord of your karma and you are also it's slave.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Vasana » Thu May 19, 2016 7:59 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Not so impersonal if Guru Rinpoche or Green Tara is there to help.
They are just representations of the enlightened qualities of our own (enlightened) mind. Realistically the only person that can help you, is you. You are the lord of your karma and you are also it's slave.
Ultimately true but I think the issue in question here is whether Guru Rinooche and Tara are autonomous agents or just 'automations' of emptiness-clarity-compassion.

I could just as easily say that you as a person are simply a representation of my mind's empty-clarity , masked with traces from my alaya. I could say that and you would still be relatively autonomous.

It is an interesting topic. On the one hand it seems like Guru Rinooche , Tara etc can manifest personally and display discernment on a situational basis and on the other , how they appear and interact with beings can never occur outside of the mind and karmic vision of that being. Not to mention that they themselves don't percieve us in the way we percieve ourselves (As inherently existing sentient beings) and we ourselves don't always recall that they're not at all fixed in any one way of appearing. I.e -Buddhas are not inherently existing appearances either.

When great tertons have conversations with Guru Rinooche as normally as we do in real life , are they speaking to an automated Guru-Rinpoche-hotline /hologram ,or are they 'actually' present. I suppose this is the same dilema as the nirmakaya/zombie thread.

I think there's more middle ground than we can probably realize at present.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by muni » Thu May 19, 2016 8:30 am

Ok, so then what is "Buddha Activity" ?
I should say since Buddhahood is radiant Nondual-Nature, this Uncompounded Inconceivable is “seen”. Then All is Compassion and never exhausted help is flowing. While we can, at the other hand, try help "others" by our judging, there is such not perceived as Buddhahood.

Through our Masters’ instructions we can see the Buddha activity. Nondual Nature invites to turn home, from the habituated dream world from between our two ears. Inviting home, with all kinds of skills. When "we" are completely open ( in devotional moment, no we-master dichotomy), to take the invitation by faith, devotion for Nature which is how we are. Then blessings flow.

O O

I mean so, even Buddha Nature is always and always nonstop helping, if we are not completely open and receptive, then how Buddha activity can be?


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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Thu May 19, 2016 9:02 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Not so impersonal if Guru Rinpoche or Green Tara is there to help.
They are just representations of the enlightened qualities of our own (enlightened) mind. Realistically the only person that can help you, is you. You are the lord of your karma and you are also it's slave.
Malcolm wrote:Buddhas help in the same way the sun shines, impartially and without any thought.
When the sun shines the world is not a dark place. However it is still up to us to get the courage to go outside.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 19, 2016 9:04 am

Vasana wrote:Ultimately true but I think the issue in question here is whether Guru Rinooche and Tara are autonomous agents...
Once something manifests in the relative sphere it cannot be considered an "autonomous agent", since the existence of the said phenomenon is based on causes and conditions.

There is no autonomy in samsara.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Thu May 19, 2016 9:07 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Vasana wrote:Ultimately true but I think the issue in question here is whether Guru Rinooche and Tara are autonomous agents...
Once something manifests in the relative sphere it cannot be considered an "autonomous agent", since the existence of the said phenomenon is based on causes and conditions.

There is no autonomy in samsara.
Guru Rinpoche and Tara are not in samsara. Sameness of samsara and nirvana, etc.

It is clear that the Dharmakaya has no thought processes. Depending on how the Rupakayas are explained that can apply to them too, thus the zombie idea. However rather than zombie/dead-like, enlightened masters are more awake than you or I. So I'm not of that camp.
Last edited by smcj on Thu May 19, 2016 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 19, 2016 9:10 am

smcj wrote:Guru Rinpoche and Tara are not in samsara.
When they appear to your mind (manifest as a phenomenon) they are in samsara.

And that, my friend, is the whole "non-abiding" deal in a nutshell. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by smcj » Thu May 19, 2016 9:15 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Guru Rinpoche and Tara are not in samsara.
When they appear to your mind (manifest as a phenomenon) they are in samsara.

And that, my friend, is the whole non-abiding deal in a nutshell. ;)
For the to "be in samsara" they would have to be contaminated by our ignorance.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: An interesting quote from HHST

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 19, 2016 9:35 am

smcj wrote:For the to "be in samsara" they would have to be contaminated by our ignorance.
Or our perception of them would have to be...

And where are you getting this whole "zombie" idea?

You are defining Dharmakaya relatively: mentally active vs mentally inactive.

In fact the Dharmakaya is beyond relativity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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