Requirements for Vajrayogini

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Konchog1
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Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:14 am

There is a Sakya Vajrayogini empowerment coming up. The requirements listed is any HYT empowerment.

Doesn't it have to be a Sakya mother tantra empowerment?
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WeiHan
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by WeiHan » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:36 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:14 am
There is a Sakya Vajrayogini empowerment coming up. The requirements listed is any HYT empowerment.

Doesn't it have to be a Sakya mother tantra empowerment?
AfAIK, it has to be a major sakya wangchen, meaning two days empowerment. For Vajrayogini, the best will be Hevajra or Chakrasamvara.

PeterC
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by PeterC » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:55 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:14 am
There is a Sakya Vajrayogini empowerment coming up. The requirements listed is any HYT empowerment.

Doesn't it have to be a Sakya mother tantra empowerment?
HH41ST and others have said that other major empowerments can be acceptable though not ideal. But usually a major empowerment is given ahead of a VY empowerment.

BTW where/when is it?

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:02 am

Nyingmapa here, don't know much about how other traditions do things, so out of respectful curiosity, why it is that one empowerment (ie Vajrayogini here) would have another empowerment (ie Hevajra) as a prerequisite?

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:40 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:02 am
Nyingmapa here, don't know much about how other traditions do things, so out of respectful curiosity, why it is that one empowerment (ie Vajrayogini here) would have another empowerment (ie Hevajra) as a prerequisite?
Because VY is a jenang, or master's permission that depends on having received an HYT wangchen as basis.
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:00 pm

Ah ok, that makes sense. Thanks for indulging my curiosity. :)

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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by smcj » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:41 am

BTW where/when is it?
Probably this:
https://mailchi.mp/5fb156a7f42b/special ... 1b8c0aeb94
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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lelopa
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by lelopa » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am

It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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heart
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by heart » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am
It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
It is an Sakya thing, if the empowerment isn't a two-day one they don't think it is a wangchen.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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lelopa
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by lelopa » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:35 am

heart wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am
It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
It is an Sakya thing, if the empowerment isn't a two-day one they don't think it is a wangchen.

/magnus

:thanks: :namaste:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Mantrik
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Mantrik » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:50 am

heart wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am
It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
It is an Sakya thing, if the empowerment isn't a two-day one they don't think it is a wangchen.

/magnus
a Gelugpa Heruka and Vajrayogini empowerment I attended was 3 days. Heruka empowerment was a prerequisite for Vajrayogini.
I occasionally wonder if monastics embellish everything into elaborate and prolonged forms meant for their lifestyle. Six session yoga etc. is also quite a practice commitment to accept.
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heart
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by heart » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:57 am

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:50 am
heart wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am
It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
It is an Sakya thing, if the empowerment isn't a two-day one they don't think it is a wangchen.

/magnus
a Gelugpa Heruka and Vajrayogini empowerment I attended was 3 days. Heruka empowerment was a prerequisite for Vajrayogini.
I occasionally wonder if monastics embellish everything into elaborate and prolonged forms meant for their lifestyle. Six session yoga etc. is also quite a practice commitment to accept.
Yes, there are 2 day or longer empowerment's in the Nyingma as well but a torma empowerment taking 2 hours is not considered a lesser empowerment.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Sennin
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Sennin » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:37 pm

This retreat will include everything:
https://sakyatemple.org/hh-sakya-triche ... teachings/
Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

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Mantrik
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Mantrik » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:23 pm

Has Chogyal Namkhai Norbu every given Vajrayogini empowerments ?
If so, I assume his requirements for practice would be the same as for other Yidams in the context of Dzogchen. Would that be correct?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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heart
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by heart » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:43 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:23 pm
Has Chogyal Namkhai Norbu every given Vajrayogini empowerments ?
If so, I assume his requirements for practice would be the same as for other Yidams in the context of Dzogchen. Would that be correct?
He wouldn't give Sakya empowerments that way since that lineage is pretty strict, but there are various terma traditions Vajrayogini as well.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Sennin
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by Sennin » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:04 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:36 am
Konchog1 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:14 am
There is a Sakya Vajrayogini empowerment coming up. The requirements listed is any HYT empowerment.

Doesn't it have to be a Sakya mother tantra empowerment?
AfAIK, it has to be a major sakya wangchen, meaning two days empowerment. For Vajrayogini, the best will be Hevajra or Chakrasamvara.
This Summer 41Sakya Trizin mentioned that Chakrasamvara is preferred but there is no difference between Hevajra and Chakrasamvara.
I assume because of the closeness of Chakrasamvaras mandala.
Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

jmlee369
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Re: Requirements for Vajrayogini

Post by jmlee369 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:20 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:35 am
heart wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am
lelopa wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:16 am
It says as Prerequiste:
"to receive any/all of the three empowerments, it is required to previously have received a major (2-day) highest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga) empowerment...."

I recieved major Wangchens that last only some hours.
the lamas said something like: this is a wangchen but we have not enough time/possibilities,
so an elaboratet empowerment is not possible/necessary, etc. etc.
It is an Sakya thing, if the empowerment isn't a two-day one they don't think it is a wangchen.

/magnus

:thanks: :namaste:
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:50 am
a Gelugpa Heruka and Vajrayogini empowerment I attended was 3 days. Heruka empowerment was a prerequisite for Vajrayogini.
I occasionally wonder if monastics embellish everything into elaborate and prolonged forms meant for their lifestyle. Six session yoga etc. is also quite a practice commitment to accept.
The need to have a wangchen of the appropriate tantric class before receiving a jenang/jinlab etc. is a point of difference between Sakya/Gelug on the one hand and Nyingma/Kagyu on the other (even the definition and functions of different types of initiation rituals, etc). Also, wangchen may take more than just two days, for example the Kalachakra, but also Guhyasamaja which takes three days. However, with the Gelugpas at least it is possible to compress the core parts of a wangchen into two sessions in one day, or even a single long session. So it is not always accurate to say that a wangchen has to take place over two days to count (though you do miss out on certain things if you abbreviate, examination of dreams being the most obvious one).

As for commitments, six session guru yoga can be quite short, it would take maybe 10-15 minutes out of a day.

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