Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

odysseus
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

lorem wrote: yeah alcohol a nono for me. seen a lot o'destruction. do you need it?
Very well, you don´t drink alcohol but you show intoxicated crazy wisdom anyway. It´s not a destructive thing, it´s a terminology.
Lhasa
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Lhasa »

lorem wrote:Yes I would definitely take His Holiness' word. I just like to point things out. Tibetan Buddhism is a mixture of monastic Buddhism*, the direct awareness** groups, and the rain sorcery cults***.

* Nalanda Tradition.
** Dromtonpa asked Atisha not to teach mahamudra while he was in Tibet.
*** Bon? Hindu and Buddhist. Indigenous tribes.
What Is Yungdrung Bon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-CMouQ1-U#t=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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lorem
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

Lhasa wrote:What Is Yungdrung Bon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A-CMouQ1-U#t=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Tsultrim T.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Tsultrim T. »

It seems to me that the Dalai Lama may not be the best judge or ultimate authority on "crazy wisdom" as this is a tradition most often found in Nyingma or Kagyu. If you look back and take the account of Guru Rinpoche's manifesting in the form of Dorje Drollo at face value as well as the often erratic and abnormal behavior of many Tertons or masters such as Drukpa Kunley, then certainly there seems to be a historical origin for this concept. As for recent "crazy wisdom" masters I would consider Orgyen Kusum Lingpa and Dungsey Thinley Norbu Rinpoche as just two possible contemporary masters. Many stories related by friends who were close disciples of these masters as well as some of my own experiences with them were definitely not "normal". They enjoyed pushing people out of their comfort zones and made people question the very foundation of their understanding of reality through what could be considered "crazy" or at least unusual methods. It was not the kind of Dharma being taught that made people feel all warm and fuzzy, but one that ultimately forced people to either break through their mental constructs or get pissed off and give up!! I could definitely see how someone who that type of teaching style was not suitable for, would call their behavior erratic or nontraditional, which is possibly the root cause for framing this conversation in a negative light. Ultimately the Buddha taught 84,000 different teachings for the various capacities of individuals and it would be vary hard for someone, even the Dalai Lama, to accurately judge the appropriateness of a particular teaching. Only one's own Guru who knows one intimately, is suitable to prescribe the exact antidote that an individual needs along the path, and outsiders are better off not getting involved in or judging another's Guru/disciple relationship.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by DGA »

I can say without a doubt when I heard this quotation repeated back to me, it was in a sectarian context by a "Western Buddhist" teacher (that is, a teacher of "Western Buddhism"), dismissing Trungpa.

I think dismissing Trungpa is a serious mistake. I doubt that was HHDL's intention, either. That's why I was asking--I wanted to get HHDL's words in context so I could understand what was going on with this exchange.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

A lot of interpretations in this thread.

Crazy wisdom is always good, but the main point is to not forget to show responsibility when you´re freaking out. :rules:
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by dzogchungpa »

Jikan wrote:I can say without a doubt when I heard this quotation repeated back to me, it was in a sectarian context by a "Western Buddhist" teacher (that is, a teacher of "Western Buddhism"), dismissing Trungpa.

I think dismissing Trungpa is a serious mistake. I doubt that was HHDL's intention, either. That's why I was asking--I wanted to get HHDL's words in context so I could understand what was going on with this exchange.
Considering how close Trungpa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche were and that HH the DL reveres DKR as one of his gurus it's unlkely that HH the DL would simply dismiss Trungpa. He also contributed the following message to "Recalling Chogyam Trungpa":
Following the Chinese takeover of Tibet in 1959 and the flight of many Tibetans into exile, Tibetan Lamas began to be invited to visit other parts of the world. Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche was among the first. Even though a young man and destined to be the abbot of his monastery in Kham, Eastern Tibet, he had already undertaken the intensive training of a recognized reincarnate Lama. While studying at Oxford University, he was able to develop a sharp understanding of the modern world that he was able to put to good effect when he began to be invited to teach about his own tradition.

When he began to teach in America in the 1970s, Trungpa Rinpoche seems to have caught the public imagination. His books such as Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism were among the first and very successful books about Tibetan Buddhism. Earlier works had been either rather dry academic studies of traditional texts or ill-informed travelers’ accounts filled with exotic tales of magic and mystery.

His was an influential attempt to share some of the insights and benefits of the teachings of Tibetan Buddhism with a modern audience in terms that they could easily understand and put into effect. Exceptional as one of the first Tibetan lamas to become fully assimilated into Western culture, he made a powerful contribution to revealing the Tibetan approach to inner peace in the West.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by DGA »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Jikan wrote:I can say without a doubt when I heard this quotation repeated back to me, it was in a sectarian context by a "Western Buddhist" teacher (that is, a teacher of "Western Buddhism"), dismissing Trungpa.

I think dismissing Trungpa is a serious mistake. I doubt that was HHDL's intention, either. That's why I was asking--I wanted to get HHDL's words in context so I could understand what was going on with this exchange.
Considering how close Trungpa and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche were and that HH the DL reveres DKR as one of his gurus it's unlkely that HH the DL would simply dismiss Trungpa.
Agreed completely That's one reason why the "western Buddhist" person's comment stuck in my craw for the last fifteen and more years.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by jmlee369 »

odysseus wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:From http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/li ... he-future/:
Stephen Batchelor wrote:While unfamiliar with Trungpa Rinpoche's concept of crazy wisdom ("weird," he commented to our surprise), he pointed out that a genuine tantrika should be as eager to ingest urine and excrement as alcohol.
Is this actually Stephen Batchelor´s own words? What a disgusting and extreme simile... This is not anything to do with Tantricism.
I am fairly certain that those are HHDL's own words. It is rather standard part of Highest Yoga Tantra practice to transform the five meats and five nectars, of which urine and excrement are two. It is rather literal at the level HHDL is referring to.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

jmlee369 wrote:
I am fairly certain that those are HHDL's own words. It is rather standard part of Highest Yoga Tantra practice to transform the five meats and five nectars, of which urine and excrement are two. It is rather literal at the level HHDL is referring to.
Of course it´s about transforming the mind. But they way of talking like Batchelor did is not good. I don´t believe his words came from the Dalai Lama, no.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

odysseus wrote:
jmlee369 wrote:
I am fairly certain that those are HHDL's own words. It is rather standard part of Highest Yoga Tantra practice to transform the five meats and five nectars, of which urine and excrement are two. It is rather literal at the level HHDL is referring to.
Of course it´s about transforming the mind. But they way of talking like Batchelor did is not good. I don´t believe his words came from the Dalai Lama, no.
Not really a big deal. Sometimes I misquote people sometimes I get it right. Could always ask Martine or Ven Tenzin Palmo or Lama Surya Das.

EDIT Bear Grylls drinks urine all the time. :thinking:
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odysseus
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

lorem wrote:
odysseus wrote:
Of course it´s about transforming the mind. But they way of talking like Batchelor did is not good. I don´t believe his words came from the Dalai Lama, no.
Not really a big deal. Sometimes I misquote people sometimes I get it right.
I think it´s a semi-big deal. There´s a difference between an ugly word and using extreme metaphors, and then thinking it´s Tantric Buddhism. Right Speech is also part of Tantra. Talking like this will put beginners off and give Buddhism a bad name. Especially when it comes from privileged academics that people will listen to.

Someone I know said to me that Tantrics were looked down on, because they used extreme methods (it doesn´t sound true). But proper Tantra is not extreme in any way, I´m talking about our actions (of body, speech and thoughts) as representatives of Buddhism.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

odysseus wrote:There´s a difference between an ugly word and using extreme metaphors, and then thinking it´s Tantric Buddhism.
I´ve read four of Trungpa´s books and never did I see any extreme language. Except his idea of "Vajra Hell", which is not extreme neither, only confusing.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

odysseus wrote:But proper Tantra is not extreme in any way, I´m talking about our actions (of body, speech and thoughts) as representatives of Buddhism.
Don't feel that's a true statement. Vehicle of the Elders is likened to a Cessna, Mahayana like a Boeing 747, and Tantra like an F-16 Falcon. (A falcon is a pretty extreme bird.)

A friend said it a differently,
Vipassana is like a dove, Zen like a woodpecker, and Vajrayana like a hawk.
EDIT Guess we can agree to disagree. Not really worth debating 'feelings'.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

lorem wrote: EDIT Guess we can agree to disagree. Not really worth debating 'feelings'.
Where did we disagree? lol

And it´s called F-16 Fighting Falcon, but it´s perhaps more Buddhist to remove the "Fighting" word. Talking about feelings, haha. :cool:
Last edited by odysseus on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lorem
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote: EDIT Guess we can agree to disagree. Not really worth debating 'feelings'.
Where did we disagree? lol

And it´s called F-16 Fighting Falcon, but it´s perhaps more Buddhist to remove the "Fighting" word. Talking about feelings, haha. :cool:
Yes that's why it is hard to tell someone's intention (sometimes). 747's are old was going to use 777 but that is a Crowley reference and I don't want people to get all worked up.

EDIT YOU ARE RIGHT FOE DESTROYER. SHOULD HAVE LEFT IN THE FIGHTING PART
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lorem
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

Vehicle of the Elders is likened to a Cessna, Mahayana like a Boeing 777, and Tantra like an F-16D Fighting Falcon. (A falcon is a pretty extreme bird. D model seats two. One for Guru and one for you.)

but most of the time I don't give a flying hoot about being politically correct. like the more raw and real. just what suits me. as i said 84,000 Dharma doors.
Last edited by lorem on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

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lorem wrote:747's are old was going to use 777 but that is a Crowley reference and I don't want people to get all worked up.
Isn´t Alisteir Crowley a 666? That figure is worn out anyway man.

Yeah, the 777 is more smooth than a 747. Is this an intentional model number from Boeing because 777 is the number of God? :twothumbsup:
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem »

odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote:747's are old was going to use 777 but that is a Crowley reference and I don't want people to get all worked up.
Isn´t Alisteir Crowley a 666? That figure is worn out anyway man.

Yeah, the 777 is more smooth than a 747. Is this an intentional model number from Boeing because 777 is the number of God? :twothumbsup:
no don't think. that's the thing about right speech. i don't really censor myself because how you interpret something is from 'your side'. things can be divisive but the moment you feel aversion or attraction then we can sit with it, look at it and then....

EDIT about people new to Buddhism kinda like AA. maybe someone will listen to you and hear their story. maybe to me and their story.

internet is vast man.
Last edited by lorem on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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odysseus
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus »

lorem wrote: i don't really censor myself because how you interpret something is from 'your side'. things can be decisive but the moment you feel aversion or attraction then we can sit with it, look at it and then....
And then what will happen, friend!?
lorem wrote: EDIT about people new to Buddhism kinda like AA. maybe someone will listen to you and hear their story. maybe to me and their story.
Let´s group-sit with our histories, but in the end, maybe the other guy´s story is not so different from your own (dukkha).
lorem wrote: internet is vast man.
It´s vast, but it´s not as large as the 84000 gates into Buddhism. :smile:
Last edited by odysseus on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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