Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

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lorem
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:48 pm

odysseus wrote:It´s vast, but it´s not as large as the 84000 gates into Buddhism. :smile:
H E Tai Situpa said that we could get enlightened off of drinking coke if we just had the lineage from the Buddha but we don't. But I do believe there is a lineage of eating crap.

EDIT Not a big deal.
I should be meditating.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:01 pm

lorem wrote:
H E Tai Situpa said that we could get enlightened off of drinking coke if we just had the lineage from the Buddha but we don't. But I do believe there is a lineage of eating crap.

EDIT Not a big deal.
The Tai Situpa is a good man. But eating crap is suffering, it´s not Buddhist lineage. :consoling:

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:06 pm

odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote:
H E Tai Situpa said that we could get enlightened off of drinking coke if we just had the lineage from the Buddha but we don't. But I do believe there is a lineage of eating crap.

EDIT Not a big deal.
The Tai Situpa is a good man. But eating crap is suffering, it´s not Buddhist lineage. :consoling:
Aye ye aye ye. I should release but going to clarify.

Mahasiddha Khanapa
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Mahasiddha Luipa
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EDIT and fish entrails is chit man. but those are practices.
Last edited by lorem on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I should be meditating.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:10 pm

*happy* :rolleye: Call it "reverse psychology" if you want to look professional.

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lorem
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by lorem » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:35 pm

odysseus wrote:*happy* :rolleye: Call it "reverse psychology" if you want to look professional.
lol
odysseus wrote:Isn´t Alisteir Crowley a 666? That figure is worn out anyway man.
Actually, I heard David Tibet make a statement and it stuck with me. He said Crowley must have been a boring man to know--just drugs and sex. (paraphrasing) You know there's a lot more to life.
I should be meditating.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by odysseus » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:08 am

lorem wrote: Actually, I heard David Tibet make a statement and it stuck with me. He said Crowley must have been a boring man to know--just drugs and sex. (paraphrasing) You know there's a lot more to life.
David Tibet looks like more new-buddhist funkiness. Nothing wrong with the name and thanks for his support.

Yes, there´s more to life than love.

:smile:

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by tomschwarz » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:32 pm

Life is very short. Words are already perilous (dual, often used to prop up substantial self, and so on). Try to respect your own good fortune and hard work to have obtained a human birth and use words with your full heart wisdom. Sit down for half an hr with no words and you will arrive at the playground of that absolute window.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:06 pm

Of course there are no Crazy Wisdom Masters...there never were. That includes CTR.
Although the myth suited CTR's wider agenda.
Its nevertheless all a myth beloved of the kind of person that loves reading books about the Vajrayana in order to feel naughty.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by uan » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:02 pm

Simon E. wrote:Of course there are no Crazy Wisdom Masters...there never were. That includes CTR.
Although the myth suited CTR's wider agenda.
Its nevertheless all a myth beloved of the kind of person that loves reading books about the Vajrayana in order to feel naughty.
Really? Could you elaborate, or do you have a reference for this?

Stating that there never were CWMs is different than people who want to believe CTR was a CWM or HHDL basically saying/cautioning people to stop looking and believing that every non traditional guru out there today is a CWM, or using CW as a way to excuse bad behavior.

I don't believe the DL said there weren't any or never were, only that he didn't know any lamas today that met that criteria, but did leave it open that there could be some yogis with that capacity.

It might be helpful if we define Crazy Wisdom Master.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:02 pm

Simon E. wrote:Of course there are no Crazy Wisdom Masters...there never were. That includes CTR.
Although the myth suited CTR's wider agenda.
Its nevertheless all a myth beloved of the kind of person that loves reading books about the Vajrayana in order to feel naughty.
Wait, are you saying that there's more to this stuff than feeling naughty?

Mind is blown.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:52 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Wait, are you saying that there's more to this stuff than feeling naughty?

Mind is blown.
Not "feeling naughty" but being seemingly naughty. CWM's don't feel naughty coz they are crazy: no naughty AND no nice for them!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Of course there are no Crazy Wisdom Masters...there never were. That includes CTR.
Although the myth suited CTR's wider agenda.
Its nevertheless all a myth beloved of the kind of person that loves reading books about the Vajrayana in order to feel naughty.
Wait, are you saying that there's more to this stuff than feeling naughty?

Mind is blown.

Change the record old bean. :zzz:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:Change the record old bean. :zzz:
As somebody once said:
Prince wrote:There's joy in repetition.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:36 am

uan wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Of course there are no Crazy Wisdom Masters...there never were. That includes CTR.
Although the myth suited CTR's wider agenda.
Its nevertheless all a myth beloved of the kind of person that loves reading books about the Vajrayana in order to feel naughty.
Really? Could you elaborate, or do you have a reference for this?

Stating that there never were CWMs is different than people who want to believe CTR was a CWM or HHDL basically saying/cautioning people to stop looking and believing that every non traditional guru out there today is a CWM, or using CW as a way to excuse bad behavior.

I don't believe the DL said there weren't any or never were, only that he didn't know any lamas today that met that criteria, but did leave it open that there could be some yogis with that capacity.

It might be helpful if we define Crazy Wisdom Master.
It might indeed.
You see I think its a collective projection..a means to give rein to that side of us which we keep hidden, without risk.
We sub -contract all that wild stuff onto some figure..usually safely dead..so as to be comfortable, while at the same time convincing ourselves that the Vajrayana does not observe convention. So its not like a religion or anything... ;)
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:56 pm

According to Cyrus Stearns ,Tangtong Gyalpo practiced Crazy wisdom or Deliberate Behavior to augment meditative
concentration by eradicating fixation on dualistic appearances.
He did this practice only with encouragement from one of his teachers.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by smcj » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:45 pm

We sub -contract all that wild stuff onto some figure..usually safely dead..so as to be comfortable, while at the same time convincing ourselves that the Vajrayana does not observe convention. So its not like a religion or anything... ;)
Pre-PRC Tibet was basically a14th century asian society. They had no problem with the idea that Dharma was a religion, or that it required faith. Those are modern western preconditions on Dharma based on our not wanting to revisit painful issues we had with the collapse of our own indigenous religion.

But you're right; the entire idea of crazy wisdom does give us moderns comfort that we are safe from the uptight conflicted religion of our ancestors. To us it seems to prove we can "take refuge" in Dharma because it is not a "religion". As such we use the idea of crazy wisdom as a refuge from religion, not as a refuge in religion. Tibetans didn't see it that way. That's our trip.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:57 pm

Agreed at all points..
Ask Tibetans about Crazy Wisdom and you, until recently, were likely to see bafflement..now of course they have read the obsessional meanderings of old hippies on the subject..people looking for reinforcement for their indiscipline.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by uan » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:11 pm

I guess the issue still is what is Crazy Wisdom? I'll start by using the Wikipedia version:
refers to unconventional, outrageous, or unexpected behavior, being either a manifestation of buddha nature and spiritual teaching (enlightened activity, Wylie: phrin'las)[2] on the part of the guru,[3] or a method of spiritual investigation undertaken by the student.[4] It is also held to be one of the manifestations of a siddha or a mahasiddha. Teachers such as the eighty four mahasiddhas, Marpa, Milarepa, the Nyönpa and Chögyam Trungpa have traditionally been associated with crazy wisdom
So anything unconventional or unexpected could be called "Crazy Wisdom". That said, just the act of being unconventional is not a mark that a person is enlightened, which is probably much more the core issue. Many people in the West want to find an Enlightened guru, and fixate on outrageous behavior as being the outward manifestation or proof of state.

I don't know what Tibetans would say if I asked them. Probably if you use the term Crazy Wisdom, they may be baffled, but if you state the behavior, they may nod their heads knowingly. It's probably normative as well. Something only looks crazy or unconventional or unexpected based on one's own experiences. What we see as unusual could be quite mundane for others.

But going back to what HHDL said, a person considered a CWM would need to be able to control the flow of their seminal emissions. A good example of CW within Tibetan history may be the 6th Dalai Lama, who wrote poems and consorted with women and was generally outrageous for the time period. There's a story that to prove he could control his emissions, he started to urinate off the top of the Potala Palace and then pulled the urine back in to his body.

Now, I don't know if this is true, but I don't think the story originated with modern Westerners.

I think the larger issue is that quite a few (not all) Westerners (and probably many in the East as well), tend to romanticize Vajrayana and some of its "secret" practices and have no real clue or understanding of the efforts and attainments involved by those who have actually achieved the fruits. I'm thinking of some of the Tibetan Yogis HHDL was referring to.

I'm really curious how those in the West commonly define Crazy Wisdom (beyond CTR as an example). For myself, I'm still trying to get past reifying the chair I'm sitting in to develop too many Vajrayana fantasies.

Edit: I guess I'm wondering -- is it that many Westerners use "Crazy Wisdom" as a way to justify for themselves or some teacher just having mundane sex or drinking or fill in the blank? So CW becomes just an excuse for doing whatever they want?

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:23 pm

This isn't really relevant to the Gelugpa tradition because Je Tsongkhapa's example is the opposite of crazy wisdom - it's the outer aspect of pure moral discipline.

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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:33 pm

Well I observed up close one who was described as a Crazy Wisdom Master over several years...and what is seldom discussed is the fact that 98% of the time his behaviour was no different to any other Kagyu teacher..and the fact that what he demanded from his students was hard, disciplined practise.
I sometimes get the impression that the fantasy is that we were all partying and having riotous fun..
The reality is that life whether at Samye Ling or later in Boulder or Halifax was hard graft, noses were to the grindstone.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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