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Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:51 pm
by uan
Simon E. wrote:Well I observed up close one who was described as a Crazy Wisdom Master over several years...and what is seldom discussed is the fact that 98% of the time his behaviour was no different to any other Kagyu teacher
or possibly higher. If you look closely at many of the historical stories that have an aspect of CW in them, CW is very much an outlier and shown under very, very unique and special circumstances, and for very specific teachings to very specific students. (at least speaking from my relatively narrow reading of such stories).


Simon E. wrote: what he demanded from his students was hard, disciplined practise.
I sometimes get the impression that the fantasy is that we were all partying and having riotous fun..
The reality is that life whether at Samye Ling or later in Boulder or Halifax was hard graft, noses were to the grindstone.
I can almost picture a teacher coming into a sangha and saying, "how's this for crazy wisdom? Hard, focused work, with no expectation of immediate results". :rolling:

I think there's an element of faith generation in the stories for us more mundane practitioners, but that value is lost if we start expecting to see CW in our teachers or as part of our practice. Heck, a lot of value is lost if we start expecting any specific results, not even something like CW, but something as simple as "I'll be happier tomorrow" etc.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:01 pm
by Simon E.
Well actually Uan thats pretty much what CTR DID say..everyday..

This idea that he was forever arranging pranks which led to insight, or undermining our self sense with clever paradox is fantasy.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:07 pm
by Schrödinger’s Yidam
Simon E. wrote:Well actually Uan thats pretty much what CTR DID say..everyday..

This idea that he was forever arranging pranks which led to insight, or undermining our self sense with clever paradox is fantasy.
And you say this from personal experience if I remember correctly. You knew him back in the early days, right?

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:08 pm
by ngodrup
To say there are no such crazy wisdom masters
is about the same as saying, he's never read
a namtar of a terton. Or to further suggest that
there are no living tertons. Of course, it is rare.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:32 pm
by Simon E.
smcj wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Well actually Uan thats pretty much what CTR DID say..everyday..

This idea that he was forever arranging pranks which led to insight, or undermining our self sense with clever paradox is fantasy.
And you say this from personal experience if I remember correctly. You knew him back in the early days, right?
Yup from when he was still in the robe, and was an Oxford student.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:37 pm
by uan
Simon E. wrote:Well actually Uan thats pretty much what CTR DID say..everyday..

This idea that he was forever arranging pranks which led to insight, or undermining our self sense with clever paradox is fantasy.
I don't know much about CTR, but I've read some of his writings and have found them to be extremely insightful. I didn't want to bring up CTR in this discussion as he can be polarizing. Then rather than discussing CW we would end up discussing CTR and whether he was a CWM and that is a different topic, and one I have really have no thoughts on.

smcj wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Well actually Uan thats pretty much what CTR DID say..everyday..

This idea that he was forever arranging pranks which led to insight, or undermining our self sense with clever paradox is fantasy.
And you say this from personal experience if I remember correctly. You knew him back in the early days, right?
I know someone who lived with CTR back in the day in Boulder. I did have a conversation with him about CTR's drinking and he said that no matter how much CTR drank he never lost mindfulness - he was always present.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:41 pm
by Paul
uan wrote:I'm really curious how those in the West commonly define Crazy Wisdom (beyond CTR as an example).
Personally I think the term itself is misleading. One other translation I've heard is 'unbound wisdom'. That gives it quite a different spin. All CW masters I have heard of were perfectly able to behave normally when required. For me this underlines the fact it's a training and teaching technique.

I am very hard to shock, so I don't think that I'd have a huge amount to learn about dharma presented in this way as it wouldn't have a huge impact compared to others. It all seems to me to be linked with people's need to be entertained rather than actually learn to practice dharma. Of course for some teachers that is an effective way to gather and teach students.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:17 am
by prsvrnc
Trungpa said that outside of the Kagyu lineage there was no such thing as crazy wisdom or crazy wisdom masters, which just confuses me. I guess I'd think that any ENLIGHTENED being would have the absolute ability to manifest some sort of crazy wisdom. If they so choose. I think the higher sanity of enlightenment is pretty much crazy wisdom even in its most conventional form since it subverts expectation.
I didn't read whole forum so am still ignorant.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:26 am
by pema metok
I should be meditating!

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:36 am
by Simon E.
pema metok wrote:I should be meditating!
You and me both...I am off to do just that.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:59 pm
by amanitamusc
odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote:
H E Tai Situpa said that we could get enlightened off of drinking coke if we just had the lineage from the Buddha but we don't. But I do believe there is a lineage of eating crap.

EDIT Not a big deal.
The Tai Situpa is a good man. But eating crap is suffering, it´s not Buddhist lineage. :consoling:



Did you ever eat Dhutsi?

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:43 pm
by odysseus
amanitamusc wrote:
odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote:
H E Tai Situpa said that we could get enlightened off of drinking coke if we just had the lineage from the Buddha but we don't. But I do believe there is a lineage of eating crap.

EDIT Not a big deal.
The Tai Situpa is a good man. But eating crap is suffering, it´s not Buddhist lineage. :consoling:



Did you ever eat Dhutsi?
What the heck is a dhutsi? I hope you're not referring to momo, because that is really gastronomically tasty. lol :thinking:

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:58 pm
by dzogchungpa
odysseus wrote:What the heck is a dhutsi? I hope you're not referring to momo, because that is really gastronomically tasty. lol :thinking:
Possibly of interest: https://books.google.com/books?id=-3804 ... 1&dq=dutsi

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:00 pm
by jmlee369
dzogchungpa wrote:
odysseus wrote:What the heck is a dhutsi? I hope you're not referring to momo, because that is really gastronomically tasty. lol :thinking:
Possibly of interest: https://books.google.com/books?id=-3804 ... 1&dq=dutsi

The five cow substance pills are not dudtsi pills, they are called pachung pills. For the record, Gelug dudtsi (nectar) pills use plant substitutes, though I can't guarantee anything about the mother pill that supplements each batch.