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Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:38 pm
by DGA
In the mid-1990s, someone referenced the current Dalai Lama as saying that he knew of no contemporary crazy wisdom masters. I've never been able to track this reference down or verify it. Here's as close as I've come.

http://www.tricycle.com/letters/letters ... 3?page=0,1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does anyone have anything that might clarify what HHDL had to say on this issue, when he said it, and what the context was? Many thanks.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:45 pm
by Malcolm
Jikan wrote:In the mid-1990s, someone referenced the current Dalai Lama as saying that he knew of no contemporary crazy wisdom masters. I've never been able to track this reference down or verify it. Here's as close as I've come.

http://www.tricycle.com/letters/letters ... 3?page=0,1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does anyone have anything that might clarify what HHDL had to say on this issue, when he said it, and what the context was? Many thanks.
http://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_Ad ... _Lama.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:21 pm
by Paul
There's also this:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ExP5 ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:39 pm
by lorem
Yes I would definitely take His Holiness' word. I just like to point things out. Tibetan Buddhism is a mixture of monastic Buddhism*, the direct awareness** groups, and the rain sorcery cults***.

* Nalanda Tradition.
** Dromtonpa asked Atisha not to teach mahamudra while he was in Tibet.
*** Bon? Hindu and Buddhist. Indigenous tribes.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:53 pm
by LastLegend
"Rain soccery cults" sound cool. :lol:

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:58 pm
by lorem
LastLegend wrote:"Rain soccery cults" sound cool. :lol:
Oh man. Get the Karmapa to bless a ball and let kids play soccer. Yeah I like that.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:52 pm
by DGA
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0201840/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:26 pm
by dzogchungpa
Possibly of interest, from Larsson's "Crazy for Wisdom: The Making of a Mad Yogin in Fifteenth-Century Tibet":
It should be noted that crazy wisdom is a controversial and contested term that once was called "new vocabulary" by the Dalai Lama.
The reference given for this is:
Dalai Lama, [Fourteenth]. 1993. Western Buddhist Teachers' Conference, March 1993 (tape 2 of 8 videocassettes). The Meridian Trust-The Buddhist Film and Video Archive. 330 Harrow Road, London, W9 2HP, U.K.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:52 pm
by DGA
Thanks for the helpful suggestions everyone.

It may be that I've struggled to find the relevant quotation because I've been looking only at text sources and not at other media, such as those VHS tapes dzogchungpa suggested.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:30 pm
by dzogchungpa
From http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/li ... he-future/:
Stephen Batchelor wrote:While unfamiliar with Trungpa Rinpoche's concept of crazy wisdom ("weird," he commented to our surprise), he pointed out that a genuine tantrika should be as eager to ingest urine and excrement as alcohol. "So what your Holiness is suggesting," called out the irrepressible Robert Thurman, "is some kind of taste test." Exactly how this would be administered was not discussed. A more delicate proof of tantrika status, His Holiness added, would be the absence of seminal emission during sexual intercourse. When asked how many Tibetan lamas today fulfilled such criteria, he confessed that while he personally knew none, there were monks in the caves above Dharamsala whose practice was such that his own, in comparison, dwindled to insignificance.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:53 pm
by DGA
:thanks:

you saved me several hours in a library VHS carrel.

ten thousand thanks.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:59 pm
by odysseus
Venerable Trungpa´s famous term of "crazy wisdom masters" is not meant as his personal excuse of his behavior outside his public lectures. But he described about enlightened people that are officially "common people", and siddhas that worked outside the monastic and organized establishment. He didn´t mean to excuse anybody or himself. The wisdom doesn´t always come from a celebrity acclaimed master. Chogyam Trungpa was a crazy wisdom master himself due to his particular style of teaching to young and untamed Americans, but he still represented Buddhism in a proper fashion.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:10 pm
by odysseus
dzogchungpa wrote:From http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/li ... he-future/:
Stephen Batchelor wrote:While unfamiliar with Trungpa Rinpoche's concept of crazy wisdom ("weird," he commented to our surprise), he pointed out that a genuine tantrika should be as eager to ingest urine and excrement as alcohol.
Is this actually Stephen Batchelor´s own words? What a disgusting and extreme simile... This is not anything to do with Tantricism.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:31 pm
by dzogchungpa

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:29 am
by odysseus
I see your link has a pointer to an address that has something to do with the word excrement, but when I click on the link there is no section that highlights any passage about the word excrement. Would you mind trying again, or explain where the Dalai Lama is talking about any parables that involve excrement?

Again, there ary some over-the-top metaphors using ugly words, but I´ve never heard about any sayings that explain that drinking pis* and digesting faeces is just as meaningful as a crazy wisdom utterance that can be spoken when you´ve drank a beer or two.

:buddha2:

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:43 am
by lorem
Could be a double entendre to one-taste And the mahasiddhas Khanapa.

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:55 am
by dzogchungpa
This is getting kind of off topic, but here's the passage I was trying to point out, from "How to Practice":
One Tibetan yogi-adept, when criticized by another, said that he ate meat and drank beer as offerings to the mandala deity. Such Tantric practitioners visualize themselves as deities in a complete mandala, within realization that the ultimate deity is the ultimate bliss—the union of bliss and emptiness. He also said that his sexual practice with a consort was undertaken for the sake of developing real knowledge. And that indeed is the purpose. Such a practitioner can make spiritual use not only of delicious meat and drink, but even of human excrement and urine. A yogi’s meditation transforms these into real ambrosia. For people like us, however, this is beyond our reach. As long as you cannot transform piss and shit, these other things should not be done!

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:59 am
by lorem
dzogchungpa wrote:This is getting kind of off topic, but here's the passage I was trying to point out, from "How to Practice":
One Tibetan yogi-adept, when criticized by another, said that he ate meat and drank beer as offerings to the mandala deity. Such Tantric practitioners visualize themselves as deities in a complete mandala, within realization that the ultimate deity is the ultimate bliss—the union of bliss and emptiness. He also said that his sexual practice with a consort was undertaken for the sake of developing real knowledge. And that indeed is the purpose. Such a practitioner can make spiritual use not only of delicious meat and drink, but even of human excrement and urine. A yogi’s meditation transforms these into real ambrosia. For people like us, however, this is beyond our reach. As long as you cannot transform piss and shit, these other things should not be done!
True. Going. To take more than 1 lifetime to get to that point (reasonable estimation)

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:01 am
by odysseus
lorem wrote:Could be a double entendre to one-taste And the mahasiddhas Khanapa.
Maybe he tried to convey that drinking alcohol is as bad as being eating crap. But in the context of what "crazy wisdom" really means, to me it sounded like a dubious view of the real crazy wisdom.

Luckily, we in the West are accustomed to strange ways of expressing ourselves. lol

Re: Dalai Lama Quotation: No Crazy Wisdom Masters

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:05 am
by lorem
odysseus wrote:
lorem wrote:Could be a double entendre to one-taste And the mahasiddhas Khanapa.
Maybe he tried to convey that drinking alcohol is as bad as being eating crap. But in the context of what "crazy wisdom" really means, to me it sounded like a dubious view of the real crazy wisdom.
Ingesting 'crap' would be 'dubious' :pig:

EDIT yeah alcohol a nono for me. seen a lot o'destruction. do you need it?