Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

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Thubten Gyatso 2014
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Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Thubten Gyatso 2014 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:57 am

I wonder if anyone might have suggestions about some confusion that I’m having about guru yoga and Guru Rinpoche practices. My teachers and Dharma center are in the Gelug tradition, so I know that means I should see Tsongkhapa as the object of guru devotion rather than Guru Rinpoche who holds that place in the Nyingma tradition. I’m having difficulty with this because although I have immense gratitude and respect for Tsongkhapa, and I recite his “Prayer for the Beginning, Middle, and End of Practice” every day, I don’t feel any connection with him. On the other hand, I feel a very strong connection with Padmasambhava, which gives me great inspiration, joy, and motivation during my practice, when I say his prayers, and throughout the day.

I know that His Holiness has given the Padmasambhava empowerment, and I recently received a Padmasambhava/Vajrakilaya blessing from Venerable Thupten Ngodrup (the Nechung medium), so there doesn’t seem to be a lineage conflict. I’ve done the Padmasambhava Guru Yoga twice, but since I probably need permission, I'll wait on that, if it's wisest.

Perhaps I’m making more of this than it really is? Maybe I should leave the Guru Yoga aside for now and just continue with the prayers until I have the opportunity to ask my teacher?

I would be very grateful for any suggestions!

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Re: Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:23 am

Thubten Gyatso 2014 wrote:I wonder if anyone might have suggestions about some confusion that I’m having about guru yoga and Guru Rinpoche practices. My teachers and Dharma center are in the Gelug tradition, so I know that means I should see Tsongkhapa as the object of guru devotion rather than Guru Rinpoche who holds that place in the Nyingma tradition. I’m having difficulty with this because although I have immense gratitude and respect for Tsongkhapa, and I recite his “Prayer for the Beginning, Middle, and End of Practice” every day, I don’t feel any connection with him. On the other hand, I feel a very strong connection with Padmasambhava, which gives me great inspiration, joy, and motivation during my practice, when I say his prayers, and throughout the day.

I know that His Holiness has given the Padmasambhava empowerment, and I recently received a Padmasambhava/Vajrakilaya blessing from Venerable Thupten Ngodrup (the Nechung medium), so there doesn’t seem to be a lineage conflict. I’ve done the Padmasambhava Guru Yoga twice, but since I probably need permission, I'll wait on that, if it's wisest.

Perhaps I’m making more of this than it really is? Maybe I should leave the Guru Yoga aside for now and just continue with the prayers until I have the opportunity to ask my teacher?

I would be very grateful for any suggestions!
You should definitely consult your guru first, but I don't think there should be many problems. As long as you understand the nature of mind, there is no difference between Padmasambhava and Tsongkhapa. In the Nyingma tradition, Padmasambhava is seen as the embodiment of all Buddhas. As a Gelugpa, it will probably be worthwhile to cultivate devotion to Tsongkhapa, though. Maybe you can visualize Tsongkhapa as a manifestation of Padmasambhava and create a connection that way? Not sure, but I definitely do not advise to stop practicing Guru Yoga. In a way, it's really the only practice there is.

The guru knows best though. In my experience, they are very good for these kinds of questions.

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Re: Padmasambhava Practices

Post by tingdzin » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:33 am

Some Gelugpa have tried to incorporate (co-opt) the figure of Guru Rinpoche, owing to the huge devotion many Tibetans feel towards him, but historically, the Gelug have not been very concerned with his practices. One branch of the Gelugpa is dead set against any mixing of Padmasambhava-based stuff with orthodox Gelug teaching, so tread carefully.

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Re: Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Ayu » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:12 am

I would go into a meditation as deep as possible and ask there how about that practice. If that is not possible, I would ask for a clear dream before going to bed.
Besides that I would ask the teacher as soon as possible.

My teacher (Gelug) told me, there is no competition between the deities. Rather they are all different emanations of one Buddha's Mind. Our center is gelug, and I never got a Padmasambhava initiation there, but we have a statue of him in our gompa there.
Another Rinpoche I know is holder of several lineages: Gelug, Kagyü and Sakya. He gave an initiation to Padmasambhava.

For these two venerable lamas Padmasambhava is no contradiction to Tsongkhapa.
If I was attracted to a certain deity I would rather take it as a precious gift and follow it. But it is interesting what your teacher will say.
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by qwerty13 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:20 pm

My suggestion is that you dont try to forcefully push your devotion for Je Rinpoche. If there is no devotion, one cannot force oneself to have devotion. My suggestion is that you practice what inspires you, and for now, keep Tsongkhapa practice in the background. You said you like reciting "prayer for the beginning, middle and end". I think that instead of doing the Guru yoga of Tsongkhapa right now, you should recite that prayer as a sort of "guru yoga". So when you normally would do the Je Rinpoche Guru yoga, recite that prayer, if it moves your heart. Then do Guru Rinpoche guru yoga. In this way you can gently and slowly approach and make genuine connection to Je Rinpoche, without forcing anything. I believe that if you let time pass, you will find that you are more and more drawn to Je rinpoche too. Thats because you are appreciating him without forcing anything. You see for your ownself his wonderfull qualities and you will be able to apperciate him for real.
Yes, Gelugpas too practice Padmasambhava. Lama Yeshe himself has said that its important to pray to Padmasambhva daily.

Dont worry about your lack devotion. When others in your sangha recite prayers to Je rinpoche with devotion and you don`t quite feel it, try avoid thinking like " I am supposed to feel devotion but I am not feeling it, OMG this so bad!" Instead, when yous see that you don`t feel inspired, think "OK, I am not feeling connected to Je Ripoche right now, but thats OK, I dont have to have the perfect devotion for him right now, there is no hurry.In future, when I get more dharma understanding I will be able to generate devotion." So on this basis, show whatever appreciation you have to him even if its just something very very small.

Give yourself time, be gentle on yourself.

Heart needs time.

BTW Padmasambhava is truly wonderlfull, just like all buddhas.

EDIT: In case you are worrying about permissions, there is also a Padmasambhava practice that does not need initiation, you can find it on this page:
http://www.losangsamten.com/sadhana.html
So that you can definetly do
Last edited by qwerty13 on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Ayu » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:31 pm

Double topic. Posts merged into one from Nyingma section into Gelug.
:namaste: Ayu
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Konchok Namgyal » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 pm

I agree , you should first perhaps talk with your Teacher about this issue.
secondly, all the traditions of TB have Guru Rinpoche in their lineage , so If there is a connection with him thats a very good thing !
I will again emphasize, be gentle to yourself, dont grasp so tightly, relationships with teachers and gurus are like any other relationship they have to be built and take work to maintain.
I am sure in time , if you are dilligent , all of these things will come to you as easily as sipping water from a cup !
Tashi Delek !
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Thubten Gyatso 2014
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Thubten Gyatso 2014 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:45 pm

Thank you so much, everyone for your kind, generous, and very practical advice! As you've said, feeling such a strong connection to Guru Rinpoche is a gift and something to be cultivated, so I will continue my practices, including the Guru Yoga (thanks Qwerty for the link to the text, which is the one that I have, and for confirming that I can do it without initiation). When I have the opportunity to discuss with my teacher how things are going, I'll see if any adjustments are recommended.

I've read that the second Dalai Lama said that Tsongkhapa was an emanation of Padmasambhava, so I won't get hung up any further about which manifestation of the enlightened mind most inspires and strengthens my devotion.

And thanks for the reminders to go easy! I'm among those who worries a lot about doing things correctly, so you've all been extremely helpful.

:namaste:

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Karinos » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:07 pm

V Dalai Lama was terton himself. One of termas revealed by him was "Clouds of Offerings to Delight the Lotus-born" which is practice of 8 forms of Padmasambhava.
Text was translated by Padmakara group (link below) and empowerments were given on few occasions also by HH Dalai Lama
You may ask your Lama if he has transmition.


http://www.padmakara.com/livrets-anglai ... 15470.html

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by smcj » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:17 pm

Some Gelugpa have tried to incorporate (co-opt) the figure of Guru Rinpoche, owing to the huge devotion many Tibetans feel towards him...
I don't think that's quite right. HHDL is personally inviting Nyingma lamas to come teach at Gelug monasteries that are under his direction so that any residual sectarian feelings against the Nyingma tradition is broken down. This is in keeping with HHDL's lifelong campaign for ecumenical acceptance and even cooperation in the Tibetan traditions. Evidently sectarianism was really bad in Tibet, and he saw the diaspora as an opportunity to start fresh. He has made great headway, although I'm not going to say that sectarianism has gone away. In fact there is a counter-current in some Gelug quarters that are pushing back. But let's not get into all that...
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:43 am

Tsongkhapa's main practice was Guhyasamaja, Yamantaka and Chakrasamvara and HHDL always emphasized these three practices for ALL Gelugpas.

As personal practices they might do Kalachakra, particular practices of their monastery etc, but their main focus should be on Tsongkhapa's original practices.

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by conebeckham » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:02 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
What the Dalai Lama doesn't understand is ...
Ridiculous. HHDL respects Christians, Muslims, etc. and does not advocate that Buddhists practice these faiths.
He also does not advocate mixing traditions, but maintains that one can practice Nyingma and Gelukpa practices, for example. Many of us practice Sarma and Nyingma practice purely, without confusion or without degrading practices.

By your own line of reasoning, you and the organization you belong to do not reflect the lineage of Tsong Khapa, who did not rely on Naro Khacho as yidam, and practiced the protectors of the three scopes. You would do well to examine these facts and consider your organization's "narrative." You should also recognize the overt political nature of your organization's actions, and stop misrepresenting HHDL, overtly or by indirect implication. It is tiresome.
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edit quote.
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རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by smcj » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:05 am

As I said,
But let's not get into all that...
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by T. Chokyi » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:16 am

A Brief Discourse on the Non-conflicting Essence of the Manifold Lineages of Buddhism

http://www.khenposodargye.org/2014/04/a ... -buddhism/

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by jmlee369 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:22 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
smcj wrote:
Some Gelugpa have tried to incorporate (co-opt) the figure of Guru Rinpoche, owing to the huge devotion many Tibetans feel towards him...
I don't think that's quite right. HHDL is personally inviting Nyingma lamas to come teach at Gelug monasteries that are under his direction so that any residual sectarian feelings against the Nyingma tradition is broken down. This is in keeping with HHDL's lifelong campaign for ecumenical acceptance and even cooperation in the Tibetan traditions. Evidently sectarianism was really bad in Tibet, and he saw the diaspora as an opportunity to start fresh. He has made great headway, although I'm not going to say that sectarianism has gone away. In fact there is a counter-current in some Gelug quarters that are pushing back. But let's not get into all that...
What the Dalai Lama doesn't understand is ...
And every single graduate of Sera Je monastery takes a Hayagriva practice from Guru Rinpoche as their yidam, making Guru Rinpoche a lineage guru for them. This was initiated by a direct disciple of Je Rinpoche who had the great fortune and blessing of receiving an imprint of Je Rinpoche's hand mark on his crown, such that it was visible even after cremation on his skull. To think that Sera Je's "mixing of traditions" runs the risk of destroying the lineage is ridiculous. It's worth remembering that Je Rinpoche himself received Dzogchen teachings.
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edit quote.

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Matylda » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:57 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote: What the Dalai Lama doesn't understand is that...
You should go forward and inform HH Dalai Lama about His serious mistake...

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by ngodrup » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:45 am

There is no problem. Tibetans widely consider Je Tsongkhapa to be
an incarnation of Guru Rinpoche. If Nyingmapas and even Bonpos can
study at Sera, Depung or Ganden (which they do) why can Ganden-pas
not study at Mindrolling, Dzogchen or Namdrolling? Further, significant
aspects of Gelug teaching are sourced in the Kagyu tradition. Then there's
the writings of the former abbot of Sera, Khonon Peljor Lhundrup, who
extensively referenced Nyingma sources in his treatises...

What Gelugpa does not honor His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and consider him
one of their teachers? Since the 5th was a terton (and student of the Mindrolling
Terchen), Namgyal upholds these termas, since the 13th was a disciple
of Terton Sogyal, the present being a disciple of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
You can definitely receive from him and others, the teachings and empowerments
of Guru Rinpoche, yidams like Vajrakilaya, Hayagriva or Shitro, or even Dzogchen.

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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Ayu » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:58 am

I removed a post, because it contained only false accusations against His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Punya » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:12 pm

Returning to the OP, I understand what you are saying TG about not feeling the connection and I think the advice to not force it is good, but if you haven't already done so perhaps reading more extensively Je Tsongkhapa texts would help. Although I don't practice in the Gelugpa tradition I find his writings to be extraordinarily beautiful and insightful.
Just as the trunk of an ordinary tree
Lying in the forests of the Malaya mountains
Absorbs the perfume of sandal from the moist leaves and branches
So you come to resemble who whomever you follow.

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Thubten Gyatso 2014
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Re: Gelug Padmasambhava Practices

Post by Thubten Gyatso 2014 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:15 pm

Karinos wrote:V Dalai Lama was terton himself. One of termas revealed by him was "Clouds of Offerings to Delight the Lotus-born" which is practice of 8 forms of Padmasambhava.
Text was translated by Padmakara group (link below) and empowerments were given on few occasions also by HH Dalai Lama
You may ask your Lama if he has transmition.


http://www.padmakara.com/livrets-anglai ... 15470.html
Thanks so much! I've ordered this and am very grateful for the reference. :smile:

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