Refuge and practice from other religions

Post Reply
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Hi!
Anybody knows if there are any restrictions to
practicing meditations from, for example, Shaivism, if
one has taken refuge with a Lama?

If one is aware of the 'ultimateness' of buddhist refuge, and if Shiva is sometimes regarded as a protector of
dharma in Buddhism, is it 'breaking' the Refuge if someone is practicing a
meditation with Om Namah Sivaya and a Siva Lingam, etc.?

I have read or heard some possible contradictory information, so I
wanted to check.

Thanks,
cheers! :anjali:
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Lobsang wrote:Hi!
Anybody knows if there are any restrictions to
practicing meditations from, for example, Shaivism, if
one has taken refuge with a Lama?

If one is aware of the 'ultimateness' of buddhist refuge, and if Shiva is sometimes regarded as a protector of
dharma in Buddhism, is it 'breaking' the Refuge if someone is practicing a
meditation with Om Namah Sivaya and a Siva Lingam, etc.?

I have read or heard some possible contradictory information, so I
wanted to check.

Thanks,
cheers! :anjali:
If you take refuge in the Three Jewels, why would you want to practise something that isn't Buddhism? Taking refuge in Shiva is breaking the refuge commitment.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
If you take refuge in the Three Jewels, why would you want to practise something that isn't Buddhism? Taking refuge in Shiva is breaking the refuge commitment.
According to the logic given by Pabhongkha himself, if you regard Shiva [or insert worldly deity here] as a Buddha, then it there is no problem with taking refuge in him.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Thank you both very much!
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

So, it is like this:
There is a practice called Shiva yoga, where a practitioner looks at
the reflection of a candle light on a lingam that is put in front of one's eyes.
The purpose of it is to purify the energy, awaken the third eye and fill the aura with light and see the
things with a proper perspective. The Shiva mantra is used while looking at it (Om Namah Shivaya).
The logic is that the lingam has electromagnetic properties
(being made od certain materials) and then, in interaction with the
energies of the brow chakra of the practitioner, the transformation happens.
The mantra removes the mental distractions, that's the purpose, and helps in concentration.

My motivation would be to:
1 improve eyesight
and secondarily to:
2 improve concentration
3 purify mental energies.

There is no special philosophy in the practice, and it is
how I received it from a teacher ('just do that, third eye opens, you purify and
you're more in the pure energy', approximately).

If I take refuge in the Three Jewels before doing that practice, does that make anything different?
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
If you take refuge in the Three Jewels, why would you want to practise something that isn't Buddhism? Taking refuge in Shiva is breaking the refuge commitment.
According to the logic given by Pabhongkha himself, if you regard Shiva [or insert worldly deity here] as a Buddha, then it there is no problem with taking refuge in him.
That's clearly not the case from Lobsang's description of the practice and Shiva is not a Buddhist deity.

What you've said is also incorrect, you can only take refuge in an enlightened being or an emanation of one. You can't impute Buddha on a worldly deity as that's like imputing wine on water, there's no valid basis of imputation.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Lobsang wrote:So, it is like this:
There is a practice called Shiva yoga, where a practitioner looks at
the reflection of a candle light on a lingam that is put in front of one's eyes.
The purpose of it is to purify the energy, awaken the third eye and fill the aura with light and see the
things with a proper perspective. The Shiva mantra is used while looking at it (Om Namah Shivaya).
The logic is that the lingam has electromagnetic properties
(being made od certain materials) and then, in interaction with the
energies of the brow chakra of the practitioner, the transformation happens.
The mantra removes the mental distractions, that's the purpose, and helps in concentration.

My motivation would be to:
1 improve eyesight
and secondarily to:
2 improve concentration
3 purify mental energies.

There is no special philosophy in the practice, and it is
how I received it from a teacher ('just do that, third eye opens, you purify and
you're more in the pure energy', approximately).

If I take refuge in the Three Jewels before doing that practice, does that make anything different?
There are many Buddhist practices to accomplish the goals you wish for, why would you rely on a Hindu practice if you are a Buddhist?

Even if this practice were to work, it would involve developing faith in Shiva and Buddha didn't teach taking refuge in Shiva.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
There are many Buddhist practices to accomplish the goals you wish for, why would you rely on a Hindu practice if you are a Buddhist?

Even if this practice were to work, it would involve developing faith in Shiva and Buddha didn't teach taking refuge in Shiva.
Thank you for your answers.

To improve eyesight also? Without initiation, etc.?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote: You can't impute Buddha on a worldly deity....
Hahahaha, well, I have news for you TKF, that is exactly what Pabhongkha in fact says.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Yeah, also, I have one more question, there
are mantras, for example, the Samjnaya mantra from the Golden Light sutra,
that invoke 'Hindu' deities (Brahma, Indra), wouldn't that be also countering the Refuge?
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Malcolm »

Lobsang wrote:Yeah, also, I have one more question, there
are mantras, for example, the Samjnaya mantra from the Golden Light sutra,
that invoke 'Hindu' deities (Brahma, Indra), wouldn't that be also countering the Refuge?
No, they are Lokapālas, mundane protectors of Dharma. Also "Brahma" and "Indra" are really more postions of devas than individual devas.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

But I have read similar of Ganesh, Saraswati and Shiva also....
Also, some mantras invoke the planetary deities, etc....
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote: You can't impute Buddha on a worldly deity....
Hahahaha, well, I have news for you TKF, that is exactly what Pabhongkha in fact says.
Can you give the quote please? I'm sure that's not the case.
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Lobsang wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
There are many Buddhist practices to accomplish the goals you wish for, why would you rely on a Hindu practice if you are a Buddhist?

Even if this practice were to work, it would involve developing faith in Shiva and Buddha didn't teach taking refuge in Shiva.
Thank you for your answers.

To improve eyesight also? Without initiation, etc.?
Yes, it requires initiation because it's the practise of Tantra.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Which one is it?
I have some initiations, so
maybe it's the same deity.
I have found a practice from FPMT of Avalokitesvara.
Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2948
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote:. Also "Brahma" and "Indra" are really more postions of devas than individual devas.
very interesting and it helps explain some things.
May I ask how you discovered this?
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Lobsang wrote:Which one is it?
I have some initiations, so
maybe it's the same deity.
I have found a practice from FPMT of Avalokitesvara.
It's the practice of Vajra recitation from Highest Yoga Tantra.
User avatar
Lobsang
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:44 pm

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Lobsang »

Om Ah Hum, or something else?
User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Refuge and practice from other religions

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Lobsang wrote:Om Ah Hum, or something else?
Yes, that's right.
Post Reply

Return to “Gelug”