The "four methods" that prove the existence of future lives

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prsvrnc
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The "four methods" that prove the existence of future lives

Post by prsvrnc » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:12 am

Are the “four methods” that prove the existence of future lives the same as the “four reasons” or “four logics”? I have reason to believe that they are not the same…. Where can I find info on what these “four methods” might be, and/or do you know what they are?
Here are my guesses:
1. Calm-abiding
2. Subtle impermanence (or momentariness?)
3. Nature of mind/emptiness of mind
4. … relying on the stories of those who have personally recalled their previous lives…?

Here are the four reasons/logics that prove (or support) the existence of future lives:
1. the logic that things are preceded by things of a similar type
2. the logic that things are preceded by a substantial cause
3. the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past
4. the logic of having gained experience of things in the past

But what are the four methods? Any help appreciated.

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Aemilius
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:35 am

What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
The first and second sound slightly dubious. In the Sutra of the Seedling of Rice Maitreya says that a small cause can give a large result, like from a small seed a great tree grows. Is this a cause of the similar type or not? A seed is not a tree.
In the process of Dependent Arising name and form are preceded by ignorance, karma formations and consciousness, which are very different in character from a material body.
Ignorance etc.. do not constitute a substantial cause.
There is no substantial cause in Buddhism, for the arising of Samsara, the Wheel of Life.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Malcolm
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:12 pm

Aemilius wrote:What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
The first and second sound slightly dubious. In the Sutra of the Seedling of Rice Maitreya says that a small cause can give a large result, like from a small seed a great tree grows. Is this a cause of the similar type or not? A seed is not a tree.
In the process of Dependent Arising name and form are preceded by ignorance, karma formations and consciousness, which are very different in character from a material body.
Ignorance etc.. do not constitute a substantial cause.
There is no substantial cause in Buddhism, for the arising of Samsara, the Wheel of Life.
It means that wheat seeds only give rise to wheat sprouts, rice seeds only give rise to rice seedlings.

A "substantial" cause means that in this case the mind, which is defined as a dravya itself, like water, fire, air and earth.
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Matt J
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Matt J » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:57 pm

It's from the Dalai Lama. I've also been looking for a source--- he says there are many, but I imagine that they are in Tibetan.
Aemilius wrote:What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Astus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:30 pm

Those four reasons are likely to be found in pramana works. The second half of the reasons - and I'm just guessing here based on other sources - are about how a newborn baby can eat and other basic things of growing up (e.g. language acquisition) from what one could assume previous knowledge, practically what is now called instincts and explained by biology.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by prsvrnc » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:03 am

Astus wrote:Those four reasons are likely to be found in pramana works. The second half of the reasons - and I'm just guessing here based on other sources - are about how a newborn baby can eat and other basic things of growing up (e.g. language acquisition) from what one could assume previous knowledge, practically what is now called instincts and explained by biology.
How would you distinguish, "the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past" and "the logic of having gained experience of things in the past"?

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
The first and second sound slightly dubious. In the Sutra of the Seedling of Rice Maitreya says that a small cause can give a large result, like from a small seed a great tree grows. Is this a cause of the similar type or not? A seed is not a tree.
In the process of Dependent Arising name and form are preceded by ignorance, karma formations and consciousness, which are very different in character from a material body.
Ignorance etc.. do not constitute a substantial cause.
There is no substantial cause in Buddhism, for the arising of Samsara, the Wheel of Life.
It means that wheat seeds only give rise to wheat sprouts, rice seeds only give rise to rice seedlings.
That would mean that you are doomed to reincarnate for ever as a human being (or what ever you happen to be at the moment). But that is not the case, you can change your species in the Wheel of Becoming.
This means that You can change your karmic seeds, or they will change naturally in the course of one life, or in more than one life. You are not permanently "rice" or "wheat". The principle of similar type doesn't hold.
According to the view of natural evolution the types of beings also change and develop, slowly but inevitably, and drastically if think that all the different kinds of dogs have evolved from wolves!
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:06 am

Malcolm wrote:
Aemilius wrote:What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
The first and second sound slightly dubious. In the Sutra of the Seedling of Rice Maitreya says that a small cause can give a large result, like from a small seed a great tree grows. Is this a cause of the similar type or not? A seed is not a tree.
In the process of Dependent Arising name and form are preceded by ignorance, karma formations and consciousness, which are very different in character from a material body.
Ignorance etc.. do not constitute a substantial cause.
There is no substantial cause in Buddhism, for the arising of Samsara, the Wheel of Life.
A "substantial" cause means that in this case the mind, which is defined as a dravya itself, like water, fire, air and earth.
As far as I know the six dravya (substances) is from Jain philosophy. In Buddhism we have for example the four conditions (pratyaya):
1. Causal condition (hetu-pratyaya)
2. Immediately preceding condition (samanantara-pratyaya)
3. Condition of the observed object (alambana-pratyaya)
4. Predominant condition (adhipati-pratyaya)
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Astus » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:20 pm

prsvrnc wrote:How would you distinguish, "the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past" and "the logic of having gained experience of things in the past"?
No idea. Finding that out would require more information.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:55 am

The probable source for the logical proofs of reincarnation is the discussion about the views of Stephen Batchelor, and there is something about the methods of attaining conviction about reincarnation also: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1548

The sravakayana author Buddhaghosha has written about the memory of past lives. There is an article of Steven Collins published in Journal of Indian Philosophy, October 2009, Volume 37, Issue 5: Remarks on the Visuddhimagga and its treatment of Former Dwellings http://www.link.springer.com/journal/10781
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:32 am

Amelius wrote:What is the source for these four logical reasons for future reincarnation?
I think the source is from a recent docrinal statement by the Dalai Lama on the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama - from http://www.dalailama.com/biography/reincarnation.

In this text, he says:
There are many different logical arguments given in the words of the Buddha and subsequent commentaries to prove the existence of past and future lives. In brief, they come down to four points: the logic that things are preceded by things of a similar type, the logic that things are preceded by a substantial cause, the logic that the mind has gained familiarity with things in the past, and the logic of having gained experience of things in the past.





Ultimately all these arguments are based on the idea that the nature of the mind, its clarity and awareness, must have clarity and awareness as its substantial cause. It cannot have any other entity such as an inanimate object as its substantial cause. This is self-evident. Through logical analysis we infer that a new stream of clarity and awareness cannot come about without causes or from unrelated causes. While we observe that mind cannot be produced in a laboratory, we also infer that nothing can eliminate the continuity of subtle clarity and awareness.


I have always found this passage very interesting, especially the statement that 'the nature of the mind, its clarity and awareness, must have clarity and awareness as its substantial cause. It cannot have any other entity such as an inanimate object as its substantial cause. This is self-evident.' The reasoning is very much like a classical argument for dualism from Western philosophy.

:namaste:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:41 pm

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Last edited by Aemilius on Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:42 pm

Certain Madhyamaka thinkers, like Candrakirti and Nagarjuna (in Yuktisastika Vritti, Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning Commentary), refute the independent or substantial existence of consciousness. The proof given is the teaching of Twelve Links of Dependent Arising, where consciousness is preceded by volition (samskara), which is preceded by ignorance (avidya). Hence consciousness is dependent on them and is void of substantial existence.
Nagarjuna attacks the presumed substantial existence of consciousness also in the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, for example in Chapter Nine: Investigation of the Existence of Something Prior.
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Adamantine » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:00 pm

Aemilius wrote:Certain Madhyamaka thinkers, like Candrakirti and Nagarjuna (in Yuktisastika Vritti, Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning Commentary), refute the independent or substantial existence of consciousness. The proof given is the teaching of Twelve Links of Dependent Arising, where consciousness is preceded by volition (samskara), which is preceded by ignorance (avidya). Hence consciousness is dependent on them and is void of substantial existence.
Nagarjuna attacks the presumed substantial existence of consciousness also in the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, for example in Chapter Nine: Investigation of the Existence of Something Prior.
Consciousness here is different than clarity and awareness, don't conflate them.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:05 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Certain Madhyamaka thinkers, like Candrakirti and Nagarjuna (in Yuktisastika Vritti, Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning Commentary), refute the independent or substantial existence of consciousness. The proof given is the teaching of Twelve Links of Dependent Arising, where consciousness is preceded by volition (samskara), which is preceded by ignorance (avidya). Hence consciousness is dependent on them and is void of substantial existence.
Nagarjuna attacks the presumed substantial existence of consciousness also in the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, for example in Chapter Nine: Investigation of the Existence of Something Prior.
Consciousness here is different than clarity and awareness, don't conflate them.
Clarity and awareness do not have substantial existence either.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:22 am

Adamantine wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Certain Madhyamaka thinkers, like Candrakirti and Nagarjuna (in Yuktisastika Vritti, Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning Commentary), refute the independent or substantial existence of consciousness. The proof given is the teaching of Twelve Links of Dependent Arising, where consciousness is preceded by volition (samskara), which is preceded by ignorance (avidya). Hence consciousness is dependent on them and is void of substantial existence.
Nagarjuna attacks the presumed substantial existence of consciousness also in the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, for example in Chapter Nine: Investigation of the Existence of Something Prior.
Consciousness here is different than clarity and awareness, don't conflate them.

Many different words are used to describe the reality (that we experience), words themselves are empty of inherent existence.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by Aemilius » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:22 am

Adamantine wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Certain Madhyamaka thinkers, like Candrakirti and Nagarjuna (in Yuktisastika Vritti, Sixty Stanzas on Reasoning Commentary), refute the independent or substantial existence of consciousness. The proof given is the teaching of Twelve Links of Dependent Arising, where consciousness is preceded by volition (samskara), which is preceded by ignorance (avidya). Hence consciousness is dependent on them and is void of substantial existence.
Nagarjuna attacks the presumed substantial existence of consciousness also in the Mulamadhyamaka Karika, for example in Chapter Nine: Investigation of the Existence of Something Prior.
Consciousness here is different than clarity and awareness, don't conflate them.

Many different words are used to describe the reality (that we experience), words themselves are empty of inherent existence.
Reincarnation and dependent arising describe existence or the process of coming to be. They are useful as tools for the arising of understanding. And so are many other Dharmic concepts and theoretical structures.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

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Re: The "four methods" that prove the existence of future li

Post by antiquebuddhas » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:44 am

Here's a beautiful articles mentioned by Dalai lama according to existence of future
http://www.dalailama.com/messages/state ... ncarnation
"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." Lord Buddha

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