higher yoga tantras

Post Reply
jigmezj
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 am

higher yoga tantras

Post by jigmezj » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:11 am

good day everyone!

i am new here. after years of being in kagyu lineage, recently, i have taken hyt empowerments from gelug lamas and here are some questions:

1) is tsog or tsok offering a part of the commitment for
father tantras or for all hyts?
2) can one do tsog offering without the transmission?
3) for vajrayogini tantra alone, does it include union?
4) for yamantaka with consort, is it considered a mother
tantra?
5) can one without retreat, do the short version of self-
initiation?

thank u so much if anyone can clarify these as i have approached many sources ending up with more confusion.

jigme

User avatar
Ayu
Former staff member
Posts: 6789
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by Ayu » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:19 pm

These questions you must pose to the people you've got the empowerment from.
The answers you can get here will vary most likely and noone here can take the responsibility if their advice is the right one for you and the certain lineage/teacher you're starting to work with.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5480
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:12 pm

Deleted by smcj
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4635
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:32 pm

Although I agree that these questions are best asked of your teachers, from the Kagyu POV --and likely from the Geluk POV as well--if you've taken these empowerments and intend to practice them, I can give some general answers.

1.HYT tantra in general provides tsok as an opportunity to repair damaged samaya, etc. Whether it is "required" or not is contingent on many factors. No difference, in this regard, between "Father Tantra" and "Mother" or "Nondual" designations.

2. I don't think so.

3.What is meant by "union?"

4. Yamantaka Tantras, incl. Vajrabhairava, Rakta Yamari, Krisna Yamari, are usually classified as Father Tantra.

5. Not sure what "short version of self-initiation" you refer to, but in general these practices or rituals are available to practitioners who have completed the "approximation" or "approach" requirements.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

jigmezj
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 am

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by jigmezj » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:43 am

thank u for the reply,

the 'union' i mean is the form of vajrabhairava in union with a consort.

jmlee369
Posts: 310
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:22 am

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by jmlee369 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:51 am

jigmezj wrote:good day everyone!

i am new here. after years of being in kagyu lineage, recently, i have taken hyt empowerments from gelug lamas and here are some questions:

1) is tsog or tsok offering a part of the commitment for
father tantras or for all hyts?
2) can one do tsog offering without the transmission?
3) for vajrayogini tantra alone, does it include union?
4) for yamantaka with consort, is it considered a mother
tantra?
5) can one without retreat, do the short version of self-
initiation?

thank u so much if anyone can clarify these as i have approached many sources ending up with more confusion.

jigme
1) the samaya to offer tsog on the lunar 10th and 25th is a specification of one of the 10 mother tantra samayas in the Vajrayogini system, so those who have only received other mother or father tantra initiations are not required (but still encouraged) to offer tsog on those days. The exception is if you received instruction from your guru to always offer tsog on those days (such as Lama Zopa Rinpoche's advice to students taking any mother tantra initiation).

2) yes after a HYT initiation, though receiving instructions on the practice is much better.

3) The Vajrayogini blessing is not a full initiation in and of itseslf, and people are required to have received a HYT initiation prior to receiving the blessing. As a yidam, Vajrayogini is solitary as depicted (there is greater meaning to the imagery which you should learn from teacher's commentary).

4) Determination of father or mother tantra is not made on the basis of the main deity's gender, presence of female deities in the mandala, or union status, so 13 deity Yamantaka with consort is still father tantra. Systems with male yidams such as Chakrasamvara and Hevajra are still mother tantras.

5) Without having done the approximation/enabling retreat (le-rung), you cannot perform any self-initiation practice (unless you mean the sealing of the crown following the absorption of the wisdom beings which is a standard part of the sadhana)

jigmezj
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 am

Re: higher yoga tantras

Post by jigmezj » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:25 pm

dear jmlee,

i am really grateful for your in-depth explanation. at least, it is much better than just asking me to refer to my initiating guru which may be most of the time impossible... if only i had had the opportunity to ask my guru, i would not have posted my queries here.

again, thank u so much for your response.

salutations to u, jmlee

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests