Bonpos vs Gelugs?

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Tenma
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Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Tenma » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:16 am

I've noticed an awful lot of hatred between the Gelugpas and Bonpos. In the Gelugpa view, the Bonpos worship worldly deities and perform animal sacrifices while in reality, the Bonpo deities like Yeshe Walmo are rather Dzogchen path. Then in the Bonpo view, they have quite a lot of negative comments on Buddhism entirely, especially with nasty stories on Padmamsambhava being an illusionist and bringing only tricks and making the dead meditate on emptiness while the Bonpos bring goodness and blessings along with giving offerings to the dead. Why is it that these two hate each other?
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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:25 am

Tenma wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:16 am
I've noticed an awful lot of hatred between the Gelugpas and Bonpos.
Really....? you noticed that huh?

Miroku
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Miroku » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:15 pm

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Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Tenma
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Tenma » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:06 am

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Miroku
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Miroku » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am

That is an old history. At the time of Padmasambhava bön as we now know it didn't exist, also tibetan buddhism didn't exist. Old bön was mostly a shamanism, with animal sacrifice etc. and they tried to stop Padmasambhava. However, there must have been at the time also enlightened bön tradition as we have very old tradition with dzogchen teachings coming from buddha Tenpa Shenrab Miwoche.
Anyway the hate you talk about is long gone and was between shamanistic traditions and buddhism.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Malcolm
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:14 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am

Anyway the hate you talk about is long gone and was between shamanistic traditions and buddhism.
Are you kidding? Bonpos are still the redheaded stepchildren of Tibetan Buddhism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Miroku » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:22 pm

Oh, are they? Didn't know that. Can you show us some more recent instances of this hate?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Malcolm
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:57 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:22 pm
Oh, are they? Didn't know that. Can you show us some more recent instances of this hate?

Well, when I was in Amdo, driving over this mountain pass, the Bonpos would paint out Om mani padme hum, and paint their own six syllable mantra, Om ma tri mu ye sa le du, over it. The Buddhists would do the same thing to the Bon mantra, and this was repeated over and over again in this part of Amdo.

If you talk to many Tibetan Lamas, their attitude towards Bon is that it is an imitation of Buddhism with a fake history.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ayu
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Ayu » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:59 pm

I neither ever heard of any "hate" against any tradition or religion by Gelugpas.

On the contrary HH the Dalai Lama stands for interreligious communication and respect.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Malcolm
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:42 pm

Ayu wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:59 pm
I neither ever heard of any "hate" against any tradition or religion by Gelugpas.
You need to study Tibetan Religious history. The Gelugpas have a long history of forcibly converting monasteries and suppressing the works of those they consider dangerous. This continued until the present Dalai Lama put a halt to it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tenma
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Tenma » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:42 pm
Ayu wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:59 pm
I neither ever heard of any "hate" against any tradition or religion by Gelugpas.
You need to study Tibetan Religious history. The Gelugpas have a long history of forcibly converting monasteries and suppressing the works of those they consider dangerous. This continued until the present Dalai Lama put a halt to it.
Is this how a Voldemort spirit arose to be used by Pabonkapa Rinpoche?
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Tenma
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Tenma » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:29 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am
That is an old history. At the time of Padmasambhava bön as we now know it didn't exist, also tibetan buddhism didn't exist. Old bön was mostly a shamanism, with animal sacrifice etc. and they tried to stop Padmasambhava. However, there must have been at the time also enlightened bön tradition as we have very old tradition with dzogchen teachings coming from buddha Tenpa Shenrab Miwoche.
Anyway the hate you talk about is long gone and was between shamanistic traditions and buddhism.
Wait, so Bonpo today has nothing to do with Pehar Gyalpo as some supreme deity, the 12 Tenma, 5 Sisters, or some village patron named Yarlha Shampo and what not? If that's the case, then how did Sherab Chanma, Yeshe Walmo, Sidpai Gyalmo, and Taklar Mebhar arose as enlightened in a worldly religion of local deities? Were these Bon enlightened ones also worldly and then enlightened or just added? I'm kind of confused, especially after reading that Sidpai Gyalmo and her forms came from some Persian river goddess.
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Ayu
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Re: Bonpos vs Gelugs?

Post by Ayu » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:42 pm
Ayu wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:59 pm
I neither ever heard of any "hate" against any tradition or religion by Gelugpas.
You need to study Tibetan Religious history. The Gelugpas have a long history of forcibly converting monasteries and suppressing the works of those they consider dangerous. This continued until the present Dalai Lama put a halt to it.
Yes, I admit my knowledge about Gelug history is poor. But the OP seems to ask about nowadays and my answer was referring to nowadays as well.

I think, this thread is disparaging the Gelug tradition and it should be discussed elsewhere. Here it is inappropriate.
:namaste:
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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