Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

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kalden yungdrung
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Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 08, 2018 5:09 pm

Tashi delek,

Have published this topic also elswhere here aboard, but i guess to place this topic here too, would not be bad.

Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso / 5th and 6th Dalai Lamas, were Dzogchenpas, see the kLa Kang murals.

Asked myself always why he /they did not integrate Dzogchen in the Gelug as highest teaching / practice.


- How do we call this Dzogchen Lineage in Gelug, based on the Great Fifth ?
- Is this an unbroken Dzogchen Lineage ?
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Tue May 08, 2018 6:03 pm

There are Dzogchen teachings as part of the 5th Dalai Lama's pure visions and these are part of an unbroken lineage but gelugpas that practice dzogchen generally take direct introduction from a Nyingma master.

My guess would be that he didn't make it the highest practice because the Dalai Lama isn't the spiritual leader of the Gelug tradition, and also Je Tsongkhapa practiced dzogchen but didn't make it the highest practice.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed May 09, 2018 3:24 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 6:03 pm
There are Dzogchen teachings as part of the 5th Dalai Lama's pure visions and these are part of an unbroken lineage but gelugpas that practice dzogchen generally take direct introduction from a Nyingma master.

My guess would be that he didn't make it the highest practice because the Dalai Lama isn't the spiritual leader of the Gelug tradition, and also Je Tsongkhapa practiced dzogchen but didn't make it the highest practice.
Tashi delek LC,

Thanks for your reply.

Did not know that Gelugpas go to Nyingma Masters to get Dzogchen teachings.
Thought always that they have their own Dzogchen Masters.

I thought because the Great Fifth practices Dzogchen , the Gelug would take over that custom.
So it means maybe,that Dzogchen was known in Gelug , but more in secrecy. or in private.

- Has this secrecy a special reason ?

The walls of the kLu Kang in Lhasa are covered with curtains and only visible for special guests, in those days.


- The Great Fifth had a Nyingma father and maybe therefore a Gelugpa goes to Nyingma for Dzogchen teachings ?

Then the Great Fith practiced Dzogchen according:

- His visions based on Nyingma Dzogchen ?
- How call we His Dzogchen Lineage if unbroken and who are the Rig Dzins of that Lineage?
- In spite the Dalai Lamas are not official the spiritual Leaders of Gelug they appear to be so in the minds of many westerns
- The Dalai Lamas were seen as Gods in the Tibet from before 1967, emanations of Chenrezig, so i have had always in mind that they have ruled Tibet , political and religious since a long time. So Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama are well known
personalities for the westerns and Tibetan world. Therefore i thought, that they would have had power enough to integrate Dzogchen as official the highest Teaching within Gelug, but maybe it has another reason and i could be wrong.
- The 14th Dalai Lama got also Dzogchen teachings form other Tibetan Dzogchen Lineages. Is he teaching according Nyingma Dzogchen or does he give his own experience as Dzogchen Teaching ?

But this needs maybe some more or better clarifications.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Wed May 09, 2018 11:26 pm

Tashi delek Kalden,

There may be gelug dzogchen masters but I am unaware of these, secrecy of your practices, such as tantra, dzogchen, mahamudra and lojong, are taken seriously by gelugpas especially high lamas and geshes.

The 5th Dalai Lama's visions are known as Sangwa Gyachen and he initially transmitted them to Terdak Lingpa and Rigdzin Pema Trinle, so the lineage is currently held by gelugpa masters such as his holiness the Dalai Lama as well as nyingmapa masters. The 5th Dalai Lama didn't integrate dzogchen into the gelug tradition because his practice of dzogchen was controversial among the more conservative parts of the gelug tradition.

I have just checked my notes and His Holiness recieved the 5th Dalai Lama's Sangwa Gyachen from Tagdrag Rinpoche who recieved it from Purbachok Rinpoche. I have never taken Dzogchen teachings from His Holiness but I imagine he is teaching from his own experience.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Josef » Thu May 10, 2018 4:43 am

Minyak Kunzang Sonam was an extraordinary Dzogchen master who was also a Gelugpa.
https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... Sonam/6470
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Thu May 10, 2018 5:33 am

HHDL Tenzin Gyatso received Dzogchen teachings from HHDKR.
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 am

The reason that Dzogchen is not part of the Gelugpa lineage is that Gelugpas follow the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa and Tsongkhapa never taught or practised Dzogchen. To attain enlightenment in the Gelugpa formulation of teachings it is only necessary to practise the lamrim of Sutra and Tantra, in which Highest Yoga Tantra and in particular the Ganden Oral Lineage teachings on Mahamudra that come from the Ganden Emanation Scripture are the highest teachings and a direct path to Buddhahood.

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Sādhaka » Thu May 10, 2018 8:40 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:21 pm
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
No, there is no record of Tsongkhapa accepting the Dzogchen teachings as valid...
This text is in the first volume of Tsongkhapa's collected works, Zhol edition, ppg. 295-314, directly before Tsongkhapa's commentary on the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion. It is in the same place in all the other collected works as well.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Thu May 10, 2018 8:43 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 8:40 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:21 pm
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
No, there is no record of Tsongkhapa accepting the Dzogchen teachings as valid...
This text is in the first volume of Tsongkhapa's collected works, Zhol edition, ppg. 295-314, directly before Tsongkhapa's commentary on the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion. It is in the same place in all the other collected works as well.
I'm not commenting on the validity of Dzogchen, I'm simply explaining why Dzogchen is not part of the Gelugpa lineage.

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by ratna » Thu May 10, 2018 9:11 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:24 am
Then the Great Fith practiced Dzogchen according:

- His visions based on Nyingma Dzogchen ?
The Great Fifth did not practice just based on his own visions, but received an incredible amount of Dzogchen teachings such as the Northern Treasures, the Kunzang Gongdü revealed by Pema Lingpa (on which the murals of the Klu khang are based) and many, many more.
- How call we His Dzogchen Lineage if unbroken and who are the Rig Dzins of that Lineage?
He received empowerments and teachings directly from Guru Padmasambhava, that is his unbroken lineage.

R

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu May 10, 2018 9:51 am

ratna wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:11 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:24 am
Then the Great Fith practiced Dzogchen according:

- His visions based on Nyingma Dzogchen ?
The Great Fifth did not practice just based on his own visions, but received an incredible amount of Dzogchen teachings such as the Northern Treasures, the Kunzang Gongdü revealed by Pema Lingpa (on which the murals of the Klu khang are based) and many, many more.
- How call we His Dzogchen Lineage if unbroken and who are the Rig Dzins of that Lineage?
He received empowerments and teachings directly from Guru Padmasambhava, that is his unbroken lineage.

R
Tashi delek R,

Thanks for your useful informations. :namaste:

Agree that the Great Fifth was well informed about Dzogchen, he knew what was excellent, therefore the name the Great Fifth maybe !
The murals of the kLu Kang in Lhasa proves that he was Dzogchenpa and the 4 walls were covered also with curtains.
So this means this little temple on the island was secret.
Only for special guests, the curtains were opened.
There must have been a reason for this secrecy and one would be that the murals would be misunderstood by non Dzogchenpas, as well Dzogchen. We know therefore the Samayas in Tantra.

- Knew other Gelugpas that the Great Fifth was a Dzogchenpa ?
- Was Dzogchen forbidden maybe ?

When i indeed consider the Prasangika - Madyamika view of Je Tsongkapa then i believe for sure that Gelug cannot have Dzogchen inside their tradition.

Was this the reason, inside Gelug, for the not accepting Dzogchen as valid ?
But from the other side Malcolm suggested maybe that Dzogchen was mentioned (as valid ?)somewhere in the scriptures of Je Tsongkapa. ( i could not follow that discussion to the point).


I did not know that the Great Fifth received via Mind to Mind Dzogchen instructions, very special.
But then ask i myself if he would be in need of other teachings after receiving the Mind to Mind teachings from Guru Rinpoche.
When somebody got Mind to Mind Teachings from Guru Rinpoche and this would be official known inn Tibet , then this would have enormous power and well such power that this experience can be seen as valid inside all the Tibetan Traditions who are all based on Guru Rinpoche, therefore i was always asking myself why Dzogchen is not a part from the Gelug Tradition.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Thu May 10, 2018 3:15 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:51 am
Agree that the Great Fifth was well informed about Dzogchen, he knew what was excellent, therefore the name the Great Fifth maybe !
The title the Great Fifth refers to the social reforms he made.
- Knew other Gelugpas that the Great Fifth was a Dzogchenpa ?
- Was Dzogchen forbidden maybe ?
It was known and highly controversial at the time, dzogchen wasn't forbidden but it wasn't viewed well as Tsonghapa didn't emphasise Dzogchen.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri May 11, 2018 7:20 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:15 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:51 am
Agree that the Great Fifth was well informed about Dzogchen, he knew what was excellent, therefore the name the Great Fifth maybe !
The title the Great Fifth refers to the social reforms he made.
- Knew other Gelugpas that the Great Fifth was a Dzogchenpa ?
- Was Dzogchen forbidden maybe ?
It was known and highly controversial at the time, dzogchen wasn't forbidden but it wasn't viewed well as Tsonghapa didn't emphasise Dzogchen.
Tashi delek LC,

Many thanks for your replies.

Yes we know that Dzogchen was in that time not so popular.
That had several reasons of course.

One would be Madyamika which was based on subject and object
And Dzogchen which does not run with subjects and objects.

But on the other side the Great Fifth was a Dzogchenpa and received Mind to Mind Teachings from Guru Rinpoche.

- How must i see the Great Fifth, what was his position within the Gelug in those days ?
- How must i see the Panchen Lamas in relation with the Dalai Lamas ?

Therefore maybe i was misunderstood, but i have always thought the Dalai Lamas were powerful within Gelug, seen that he is able to forbid Gyalpo ceremonies etc. and therefore it sounds strange to me that the Great Fifth was NOT able to setup Dzogchen within the Gelug Tradition.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:20 am

Therefore maybe i was misunderstood, but i have always thought the Dalai Lamas were powerful within Gelug, seen that he is able to forbid Gyalpo ceremonies etc. and therefore it sounds strange to me that the Great Fifth was NOT able to setup Dzogchen within the Gelug Tradition.
I think it's simple - the 5th Dalai Lama's approach of practising teachings outside the Gelugpa tradition was not mainstream therefore Dzogchen was not adopted within the tradition. The 5th Dalai Lama's own root Guru, Panchen Lama Losang Chogyan did not practise Dzogchen and it is from this great Lama that the uncommon Mahamudra instructions were extracted from the Ganden Emanation Scripture and codified for practice.

Teachers like the 5th Dalai Lama and the 14th Dalai Lama are anomalies within the Gelugpa, maybe not so much these days, I don't know.

There is another reason too which is that Dzogchen is unnecessary to attain enlightenment from the point of view of Gelugpa (Mahamudra meditation is the path) so why would it need to be included?

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:20 am

Therefore maybe i was misunderstood, but i have always thought the Dalai Lamas were powerful within Gelug, seen that he is able to forbid Gyalpo ceremonies etc. and therefore it sounds strange to me that the Great Fifth was NOT able to setup Dzogchen within the Gelug Tradition.
I think it's simple - the 5th Dalai Lama's approach of practising teachings outside the Gelugpa tradition was not mainstream therefore Dzogchen was not adopted within the tradition. The 5th Dalai Lama's own root Guru, Panchen Lama Losang Chogyan did not practise Dzogchen and it is from this great Lama that the uncommon Mahamudra instructions were extracted from the Ganden Emanation Scripture and codified for practice.

Teachers like the 5th Dalai Lama and the 14th Dalai Lama are anomalies within the Gelugpa, maybe not so much these days, I don't know.

There is another reason too which is that Dzogchen is unnecessary to attain enlightenment from the point of view of Gelugpa (Mahamudra meditation is the path) so why would it need to be included?
Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your replies.

Teachings about Dzogchen, that was not outside the Lineage because of the Mind to Mind teachings, received from Guru Rinpoche.
The Panchen Lama Losang Chögyan did follow Chag Gya Chenpo, was this an unbroken Lineage ?

- What is the Mahamudra Lineage from Gelug ?

Ok, now it is more clear to me why Gelug did not accept Dzogchen as valid because of Mahamudra.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Fri May 11, 2018 5:40 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your replies.

Teachings about Dzogchen, that was not outside the Lineage because of the Mind to Mind teachings, received from Guru Rinpoche.
The Panchen Lama Losang Chögyan did follow Chag Gya Chenpo, was this an unbroken Lineage ?

- What is the Mahamudra Lineage from Gelug ?

Ok, now it is more clear to me why Gelug did not accept Dzogchen as valid because of Mahamudra.
Hi Kalden Yungdrung,

Within the Gelugpa tradition there are two lineages of Mahamudra instructions, the common and the uncommon. The common instructions come from the Hevajra Tantra and the Six Yogas of Naropa and were practised by Marpa, Milarepa and other Kagyu practitioners, and the uncommon instructions come from Buddha Vajradhara to Manjushri and directly to Je Tsongkhapa and then to his students, including Panchen Lama Losang Chogyan.

Both lineages are unbroken.

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat May 12, 2018 10:47 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 5:40 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your replies.

Teachings about Dzogchen, that was not outside the Lineage because of the Mind to Mind teachings, received from Guru Rinpoche.
The Panchen Lama Losang Chögyan did follow Chag Gya Chenpo, was this an unbroken Lineage ?

- What is the Mahamudra Lineage from Gelug ?

Ok, now it is more clear to me why Gelug did not accept Dzogchen as valid because of Mahamudra.
Hi Kalden Yungdrung,

Within the Gelugpa tradition there are two lineages of Mahamudra instructions, the common and the uncommon. The common instructions come from the Hevajra Tantra and the Six Yogas of Naropa and were practised by Marpa, Milarepa and other Kagyu practitioners, and the uncommon instructions come from Buddha Vajradhara to Manjushri and directly to Je Tsongkhapa and then to his students, including Panchen Lama Losang Chogyan.

Both lineages are unbroken.

Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your replies.

Yeh, Mahamudtra is a typical Kagyu practice, Tilo, Naro, Marpa , Milarepa, Gampopa , Maitripa, were great Mahasiddhas.

Here we see like with the Great Fifth, similarities namely a Mind to Mind teaching and now regarding Mahamudra and not Dzogchen.
Here Je Tsongkapa introduces Mahamudra into the Gelug Tradition, but a few emanations later, the 5th Tulku (Dalai Lama) cannot make it true, to introduce Dzogchen into the Gelug Tradition.

That sounds until now strange to me, isn´t it?

Ka Nying in Nepal, have as well Mahamudra, as well Dzogchen.
First Mahamudra is teached and practiced and thereafter follows on top Dzogchen.


So it is possible to have Dzogchen and Mahamudra together running in a Tibetan Buddhist Tradition.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sun May 13, 2018 12:06 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:47 pm
Here we see like with the Great Fifth, similarities namely a Mind to Mind teaching and now regarding Mahamudra and not Dzogchen.
Here Je Tsongkapa introduces Mahamudra into the Gelug Tradition, but a few emanations later, the 5th Tulku (Dalai Lama) cannot make it true, to introduce Dzogchen into the Gelug Tradition.

That sounds until now strange to me, isn´t it?
The Dalai Lama isn't the tulku of Tsongkhapa, the Dalai Lama's are tulkus of one of Tsongkhapa's disciples, Gedun Drupa.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun May 13, 2018 12:31 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 12:06 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:47 pm
Here we see like with the Great Fifth, similarities namely a Mind to Mind teaching and now regarding Mahamudra and not Dzogchen.
Here Je Tsongkapa introduces Mahamudra into the Gelug Tradition, but a few emanations later, the 5th Tulku (Dalai Lama) cannot make it true, to introduce Dzogchen into the Gelug Tradition.

That sounds until now strange to me, isn´t it?
The Dalai Lama isn't the tulku of Tsongkhapa, the Dalai Lama's are tulkus of one of Tsongkhapa's disciples, Gedun Drupa.
Tashi delek LC,

Thanks for the reply.

Ok, a little misunderstanding from my side, sorry for that.

Do you think that because they are no direct Tulkus from Je Tsongkapa, they would not have enough power to make Dzogchen useful within the Gelug Tradition ?

- Another option would maybe, that the Dalai Lamas would have been dominated by other Gelugpas.
- Then arises the question how is the hierarchy in Gelug managed ?

Know only that the Panchen Lamas are very important within the Gelug Tradition.

Best wishes.
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sun May 13, 2018 9:27 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 12:31 am
Tashi delek LC,

Thanks for the reply.

Ok, a little misunderstanding from my side, sorry for that.

Do you think that because they are no direct Tulkus from Je Tsongkapa, they would not have enough power to make Dzogchen useful within the Gelug Tradition ?

- Another option would maybe, that the Dalai Lamas would have been dominated by other Gelugpas.
- Then arises the question how is the hierarchy in Gelug managed ?

Know only that the Panchen Lamas are very important within the Gelug Tradition.

Best wishes.
The Gaden Tripa are Tsongkhapa's spiritual sons, so the hierarchy is 1) Gaden Tripa 2) Dalai Lama 3) Panchen Lama.

It won't have been changed because it's not part of Tsongkhapa's primary teachings
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
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