Dharma Wheel

Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.

michaelb wrote:Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.

I sent them an email years back, when a very similar thread dialogue was happening on Esangha. They never replied to me.

I'm locking this temporarily until the staff can respond to a report. Jikan, who was moderating
this thread, is unable to be online for a period of time so we need to pass the baton.

UPDATE: This thread has continued to be locked because it was spinning into rumors and harsh speech and touching on topics forbidden by our TOS.

It shall remain locked, unless anyone has a very important and compelling reason to reopen it, in which case you can PM me or other staff and we will consider it.

I am reopening this thread on the request of a user, given that significant changes are afoot for Tsem.

Friendly reminder: if this thread becomes a magnet for discourse that transgresses our terms of service, the thread will be locked once more and the key most likely thrown away for good. here are the terms of service, which have changed recently:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=109

thank you for your time and contributions at DharmaWheel.

Well, the basic news is that Tsem, puportedly due to rising exposure by former followers, has fled back to America.

We expect a further post with more details to be forthcoming. If anyone personally knows more valid information or details, without unsubstantiated gossip, feel free to fill in the blanks. It is clear he is in LA from his twitter feed.

He lost my favor when he made fun of one of his overweight students in a video.

Adamantine wrote:Well, the basic news is that Tsem, puportedly due to rising exposure by former followers, has fled back to America.

We expect a further post with more details to be forthcoming. If anyone personally knows more valid information or details, without unsubstantiated gossip, feel free to fill in the blanks. It is clear he is in LA from his twitter feed.

Ah I see. Well, looking forward to the drama...

He is fat himself.

Sherlock wrote:He is fat himself.

If Tsem Tulku shouldn't make fun of fat folk, unless he knows public humiliation will help that person, we shouldn't make fun of his double chin....seriously

Sherlock wrote:He is fat himself.

This was done when he was skinny.

now... ...

Adamantine wrote:Well, the basic news is that Tsem, puportedly due to rising exposure by former followers, has fled back to America.

We expect a further post with more details to be forthcoming. If anyone personally knows more valid information or details, without unsubstantiated gossip, feel free to fill in the blanks. It is clear he is in LA from his twitter feed.

Doesn't your post urging people to not to post "unsubstantiated gossip" contain said gossip?

practitioner wrote:

Adamantine wrote:Well, the basic news is that Tsem, puportedly due to rising exposure by former followers, has fled back to America.

We expect a further post with more details to be forthcoming. If anyone personally knows more valid information or details, without unsubstantiated gossip, feel free to fill in the blanks. It is clear he is in LA from his twitter feed.

Doesn't your post urging people to not to post "unsubstantiated gossip" contain said gossip?

Perhaps. We received a report with more info and a request to reopen the thread to report it. This member appears to be busy or has changed their mind about posting here. Since everyone was quite eager I gave a one-line snippet of info that appears to be accurate. It is certain that he is in the USA, and that there have been problems with his organization in Malaysia regarding disgruntled ex-members –so putting the two together doesn't seem to be wild speculation or unsubstantiated, especially when there seemed to be a credible source for attributing one to the other.

If this member does not come forward soon we will lock the thread once again since it seems to be just a playground for fun at the expense of others which is not the point of this thread or forum.

Regarding controversial teachers: while gossip is not welcome here, it is also good to not inhibit or repress the reporting of important developments that can further illuminate to past, present, or potential students of such a teacher that perhaps they should seek refuge in more authentic places. However, this in itself is controversial so I don't expect a universal agreement about there being a place for this on this forum. I am not sure this new info I mentioned qualifies in this regard, but the rest of the (possibly forthcoming) info may.

Adamantine wrote:

michaelb wrote:Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.

I sent them an email years back, when a very similar thread dialogue was happening on Esangha. They never replied to me.

I'd told that the Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (www.vbcm.org) has informed the Dalai Lama too. There's nothing they can do, excepting documenting reports of ex-members' experience, which might be useful later.

It's extremely difficult to deal with cultish groups, as they don't limit themselves to ethical behaviour. Almost anything can be done and justified as serving greater good. For example, an former inner circle member reported that another ex-member was accused of stealing and was beaten. So, who dares get involved?

Adamantine wrote:... the thread... seems to be just a playground for fun at the expense of others which is not the point of this thread or forum.

Fully agree. Let's be civil here. Besides, ridiculing followers (cult or not) aren't helpful at all. Instead, it's likely to trigger them to cling more strongly to the group, and build a stronger "We vs Them" psychological wall.

If you want to be of help, I suggest reading up on religious cults, esp the reports from former members. When you understand it well enough, you know that every cult member (leader included) is suffering tremendously. So, please consider if ridiculing is the way to go.

Adamantine wrote:Regarding controversial teachers: while gossip is not welcome here, it is also good to not inhibit or repress the reporting of important developments that can further illuminate to past, present, or potential students of such a teacher that perhaps they should seek refuge in more authentic places. However, this in itself is controversial so I don't expect a universal agreement about there being a place for this on this forum. I am not sure this new info I mentioned qualifies in this regard, but the rest of the (possibly forthcoming) info may.

Fully agree. According to cult experts, the best measure is preventive education. If we can't have information on controversial teachers/groups here because of some poor behaviour, then it's a shame, isn't it?

I hope someone from Kechara will post and clear this up. That after TRs recent expansion push, which included having people give up promising careers to work for his organization full time, as well as give money for the new centre in KL and massive retreat property in the countryside (both of which include private residences for him) he has not just picked up and left everyone in the lurch.
Like I said, I actualky hope this is a misunderstanding. TR should not have left without at least asking the monastery in India tosend a lama to Malaysia to take over if he cannot fulfill his responsibilities.

JamesWang wrote:Fully agree. According to cult experts, the best measure is preventive education. If we can't have information on controversial teachers/groups here because of some poor behaviour, then it's a shame, isn't it?

I agree that information is very important indeed in such cases. That is why I made the decision to reopen this thread, with the hope that some information may be presented that could be useful to people who are affiliated in one way or another with Tsem or his organization, or who may take an interest in the future.

If this thread wanders from facts and into judgments, hyperbole, or table-pounding (or just gets out of control vis a vis The Rules), then I will be proven wrongly-optimistic and the thread relocked.

JamesWang wrote:

Adamantine wrote:

michaelb wrote:Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.

I sent them an email years back, when a very similar thread dialogue was happening on Esangha. They never replied to me.

I'd told that the Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (http://www.vbcm.org) has informed the Dalai Lama too. There's nothing they can do, excepting documenting reports of ex-members' experience, which might be useful later.

Is there no official statement of the monastery in India where he studied and supposedly got his title, teaching permission etc from? If he is giving tantric empowerment it's surely possible to verify if he is qualified.

Doesn't that monastery have an abbot/root guru who is responsible for and will give information about that guy?

And is it appropriate to use the title tulku for him if there is no verification that he was officially recognized as one by someone who is qualified to do so?

theanarchist wrote:Is there no official statement of the monastery in India where he studied and supposedly got his title, teaching permission etc from? If he is giving tantric empowerment it's surely possible to verify if he is qualified.

A committee member of Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (http://www.vbcm.org/) said Kechara House once applied to become a member. As the leader claims the title of Tulku, besides Rinpoche, VBCM asked for the papers to confirm.

You can contact [email protected] for confirmation.

JKhedrup wrote:I hope someone from Kechara will post and clear this up.

I think likely none would.

In the past, we could expect a massive defense streak, perhaps in respond to a standing order. It does seem like they keep a watch on anything negative about them. And I'm sure they are following this. "They" not as in just any member, but inner circle ones. They rest are probably told to back off, since their efforts to promote Tsem failed. (Please refer to how this thread started.) I can imagine them being severely scolded for that.

That after TRs recent expansion push, which included having people give up promising careers to work for his organization full time, as well as give money for the new centre in KL and massive retreat property in the countryside (both of which include private residences for him) he has not just picked up and left everyone in the lurch.

The amount of money is substantial. One rich lady pledged RM70 (USD21.11) million for the forest retreat. He said he would select 108 followers to join him there. When I heard this, I thought, "Oh, man... Is this going to be like Jonestown?"

Like I said, I actualky hope this is a misunderstanding. TR should not have left without at least asking the monastery in India tosend a lama to Malaysia to take over if he cannot fulfill his responsibilities.

Even if he can, I doubt he would want to. He has ordained 'pastors' instead.