Primordial Buddha Post?

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jake
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Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by jake » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:10 pm

What happened to the primordial buddha discussion? I can't find it anywhere....

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conebeckham
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:25 pm

I am going to hazard a guess that the OP asked that it be killed. Vanished. Disposed of. Deceased. It''s an "ex-post."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

markatex
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by markatex » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:38 pm

It was a total clusterf.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Caoimhghín » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:22 am

Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Yavana » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:03 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.
Consider it a way of life.

Moreover, people show great hostility to this sutra, even in the presence of the Tathāgata. How much more so after the parinirvāṇa of the Tathāgata!
— LS Ch10


:buddha1:

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:04 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.
It is the primordial trend. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:09 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.

Who in that thread actually had knoweldge of East Asian doctrinal notions of the Adi Buddha in the first place though? All I saw was spitballing from the OP(s). In a case like that, it's hard to see how any outside participation wouldn't be seen as preachy.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Caoimhghín » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:14 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.

Who in that thread actually had knoweldge of East Asian doctrinal notions of the Adi Buddha in the first place though? All I saw was spitballing from the OP(s). In a case like that, it's hard to see how any outside participation wouldn't be seen as preachy.
It was in the Nichiren subforum. Mahāvairocana is not necessarily a figure of any meaningful import in a Nichiren context, since the Primordial Buddha of the Lotus Sutra, of Nichiren's interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, is not necessarily Mahāvairocana. There is not necessarily overlap across sectarian lines. Particularly when certain parties want to force doctrines originating outside of the Lotus Sutra on Nichiren practitioners.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:28 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Honestly a bunch of people suddenly jumped on the thread who had little respect or knowledge of East Asian Buddhism, who demanded that everyone bow to their Indic orthodoxy and terminology. The same thing happened with the thread "Holy Eagle Peak and the Saha World". I hope it does not become a trend.

Who in that thread actually had knoweldge of East Asian doctrinal notions of the Adi Buddha in the first place though? All I saw was spitballing from the OP(s). In a case like that, it's hard to see how any outside participation wouldn't be seen as preachy.
It was in the Nichiren subforum. Mahāvairocana is not necessarily a figure of any meaningful import in a Nichiren context, since the Primordial Buddha of the Lotus Sutra, of Nichiren's interpretation of the Lotus Sutra, is not necessarily Mahāvairocana. There is not necessarily overlap across sectarian lines. Particularly when certain parties want to force doctrines originating outside of the Lotus Sutra on Nichiren practitioners.

Unless I missed something (totally possible I didn't see the whole thread), I didn't see that. What I saw was that most people in the thread (including me) didn't actually know what the Lotus schools (or just Nichiren) thought about a Primordial Buddha, or at least it wasn't clear. IN that environment, what wouldn't come across as preachy? Just saying, if you want to accuse people of proselytizing, I'd be interested to know what ideas they were supposedly trying to overrule - as I personally never saw said ideas presented in the first place. :shrug:
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Caoimhghín » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:33 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Unless I missed something, I didn't see that. What I saw was that most people in the thread (including me) didn't actually know what the Lotus schools (or just Nichiren) thought about a Primordial Buddha, or at least it wasn't clear. IN that environment, what wouldn't come across as preachy? Just saying, if you want to accuse people of proselytizing, I'd be interested to know what ideas they were supposedly trying to overrule - as I personally never saw said ideas presented in the first place. :shrug:
Alas the thread is gone, as is the other thread that was deleted for the exact same reasons. It's not proselytizing so much as just individual people insisting on explaining things and understanding things purely from the POV of their particular sect, not being willing to try to evaluate the sect they don't practice in on its own terms, not theirs. Obviously it wasn't that severe or crazy because I don't think anyone got banned for it.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Aemilius » Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:44 am

The worst mistake probably was that there was original and new thinking in it. It may be that after sometime we will see those same ideas, or their derivatives, in a new publication somewhere put in the name of a known and accepted Buddhist authority?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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conebeckham
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:07 pm

With no disrespect meant, what exactly was "original and new thinking?"

I confess to knowing very little about East Asian Buddhism, and Nichiren in particular--my college-level Intro To Buddhism class was decades ago, and I've done very little reading on the subject since. But I didn't see anything original or new......basically, I saw a lack of clarity regarding basic Buddhist doctrine, like "beginningless samsara," or the primacy of "ignorance" as the root of all three poisons.

In truth, it's not at all unexpected to see ideas from monotheistic systems referenced in Pure Land discussions....it was common in my Intro Class, and it seems to be common in the Western world, in general. I recall discussion regarding "Self Power" and "Other Power," and comparisons to a sort of Faith in God idea. I take it this is facile thinking, and mistaken, and even the OP was clearly not advocating for any such idea or position.

The proposition that there was a state of original purity, and that desire was the cause of deviation from that state, at some point in time, seems, to me, at odds with Buddhism of all stripes, but clearly part of the Monotheistic tradition--though I think "desire" is not the root cause even in those faiths. This proposition was the "meat" of the thread, if I recall. Was that original?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:20 pm

conebeckham wrote: there was a state of original purity
There is a state of original purity. It has no temporal existence however.

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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote: there was a state of original purity
There is a state of original purity. It has no temporal existence however.
Yes. Operative word being "was"--
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Queequeg
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:34 pm

Clearly, people were interested in this topic.

For the record, I pulled the plug on the topic because in reviewing it, there was little substance, a lot of sniping, and it looked mired at a base level of discussion.

I will clean it up and repost. Depending on how it looks after pruning, it may go into the East Asian, or possibly Mahayana forum... we will see.

Send the hate mail for heavy handed modding my way.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:56 pm

Image

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Queequeg
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Re: Primordial Buddha Post?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:07 pm

By popular demand... As I was reviewing the thread, I realized, it actually was a pretty good discussion, except where things got snipey. Even when they veered into meta and ad hom territory, it didn't go so far off course and generally got rectified in due course. I did lop some of the posts at the end off.

So... "Primordial Buddha" is back. (As if he ever left us.)

in the words of Big John McCarthy...

"Are you ready? Are you ready? Let's get it on."

phpBB [video]
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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