Saddharmapuṇḍarīka & maṇipadme

[Caoimhghín]

Something that occurred to me a while ago:

Oṃ maṇipadme hūṃ
Oṃ the-jewel-in-the-lotus hūṃ

This is a famous mantra that I am sure we are all casually familiar with.

Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra
The-Subtle-Dharma's-lotus's-sūtra,
or, more clearly in English,
The-Sūtra-of-the-Subtle-Dharma's-Lotus

Nichiren Buddhists chant this compound word as a mantra as part of their focussed practice prescribed by Nichiren, in Sino-Japanese, as Myōhō Renge Kyō, with a Namu in front of it.

The similarities between Oṃ and Namo/Namu interest me, because they have both, over time, evolved to take on increasingly abstract meanings, to the point where sometimes they seem to just be invocations of obeisance and participation in relation to an object of devotion. Sometimes the boundary between an Om and a Namo can be quite blurry, though generally it seems that "Namo" is directed at an object of veneration, while "Om" can be more nebulous on terms of what or who is being addressed/invoked.

The jewel in the lotus.
The subtle Dharma of the lotus.

I am not saying that these mantras are identical, or that one directly evolved from the other, or that either mantra is a "copy" of the other, but it seems to me that something is being prefigured, perhaps unconsciously, not by the forces of human intention.

We have, in ancient times, a mantra invoking a "jewel" in relation to a lotus, prefixed by a general "Om".

We have, more recently, a mantra invoking a "subtle Dharma", more explicit a definition of a venerated object than "Jewel", in relation to a lotus, prefixed by a direct invocation (Namu), most likely to a speficic "something".

This is wild and groundless, fully extrapolated speculation, on my part, but it seems that what appears, on the surface, to be a revolutionary change, may be, in fact, simply a re-statement, a re-clarification, in line with ancient beliefs it sometimes can "seem" to change or overturn.

[Sentient Light]

Etymologically, they do not originate from the same phonemes; it is more coincidental than anything else. While "Om" has always had a fairly abstract meaning, "namo" was a word that very clearly meant "I bow to." The use of "namo" in mantras is a verbal prostration.

[Caoimhghín]

Etymologically, they do not originate from the same phonemes; it is more coincidental than anything else. While "Om" has always had a fairly abstract meaning, "namo" was a word that very clearly meant "I bow to." The use of "namo" in mantras is a verbal prostration.

Oh yes, definitely, that is not what I was trying to say. Rather they both go from specific meanings, though different, to more abstract versions of themselves. IMO, at least. Om, is supposed to be some sort of participation in the sound-vibrations of the universe/"true reality", right? Is the Hindu Om and the Buddhist Om the same thing? What is a Buddhist Om in reference to?

[Queequeg]

Interesting question about Om and Namu.



One note - Pundarika is White Lotus, while Padme is Red Lotus.

[Caoimhghín]

Etymologically, they do not originate from the same phonemes; it is more coincidental than anything else. While "Om" has always had a fairly abstract meaning, "namo" was a word that very clearly meant "I bow to." The use of "namo" in mantras is a verbal prostration.

Oh yes, definitely, that is not what I was trying to say. Rather they both go from specific meanings, though different, to more abstract versions of themselves. IMO, at least. Om, is supposed to be some sort of participation in the sound-vibrations of the universe/"true reality", right? Is the Hindu Om and the Buddhist Om the same thing? What is a Buddhist Om in reference to?

As one final bit of clarification, I did not mean to imply that Om and Namo originally had the same meanings. Sorry if I miscommunicated that.

[narhwal90]

Shingon takes the word sounds very seriously, the "A*" syllable etc- hopefully I got the reference right, my apologies if not. Perhaps various esoteric traditions value sounds differently, but such things can have political elements as well; note the SGI switching to "Nam" for all the gongyo prayers from the previous NSA tradition of "Namu".

[Caoimhghín]

Shingon takes the word sounds very seriously, the "A*" syllable etc- hopefully I got the reference right, my apologies if not. Perhaps various esoteric traditions value sounds differently,

I think I read somewhere that there was a Tibetan sūtra that symbolically just contained the letter "A", I wonder if the Shingon have similar literature surrounding the letter "A". I wouldn't know, unforunately, because the only exposure to Shingon Buddhism I've ever had is the documentary Pilgrimage to Koyasan, lol. But in that documentary, I just remembered, a Shingon priest has a small talk concerning the interpretation of the idea of "word". Very interesting.

but such things can have political elements as well; note the SGI switching to "Nam" for all the gongyo prayers from the previous NSA tradition of "Namu".

I also remember being told by someone that this was more of an issue of class-relations in Japan, and which pronunciations of Japanese become prestigious, which accents become "proper", and which accents come to be associated with lower-class stereotypes like "bumpkin" or "redneck". The Nam/Namu split is actually older than SGI, isn't it? There are accents of Japanese that don't pronounce the 'u' in a full voicing. Then again, I don't really know how significant the Nam/Namu difference is in Japanese Buddhism, this is just something I remember being argued once.

[Admin_PC]

I think I read somewhere that there was a Tibetan sūtra that symbolically just contained the letter "A", I wonder if the Shingon have similar literature surrounding the letter "A".

Yeah, it's the "The Perfection of Wisdom in One Letter"
Here it is below:

Homage to the Perfection of Wisdom!
Thus have I heard at one time. The Lord dwelt at Rajagrha, on the Vulture Peak, together with a large congregation of monks, with 1,250 monks, and with many hundreds of thousands of niyutas of kotis of Bodhisattvas. At that time the Lord addressed the Venerable Ananda, and said:

"Ananda, do receive, for the sake of the weal and happiness of all beings, this perfection of wisdom in one letter, A."

Thus spoke the Lord. The Venerable Ananda, the large congregation of monks, the assembly of the bodhisattvas, and the whole world with its gods, men, asuras and gandharvas rejoiced at the teaching of the Lord.

(The Short Prajnaparamita Texts. Prajnaparamita in a Single Letter. Translated by Edward Conze. Luzac & Company Ltd., 46 Great Russell Street, London, 1973).

I'm confident that Shingon has the same teaching.
The letter "A" represents emptiness.
Honen quotes Shingon teachings.

The Shingon school teaches that the letter A in the Sanskrit alphabet indicates the origin of all phenomena and the state of nonproduction, and that the letter A produces forty-two Sanskrit characters. All existence is contained in the letter A; therefore, the name of Amida is considered to be most meritorious.

Sorry, I'm having trouble finding a Taisho reference for the above sutra in the Daizokyo Database. Searching through the PrajnaParamita collection isn't turning up much and searching on the letter A (阿 in Chinese) isn't helping either.

[rory]

Tendai in its esoteric teachings has it too. A big practice is Ajikan meditation. I did this about twice ages ago, it was interesting but esoteric practices don't move me, I preferred and still prefer Nenbutsu and shikan, reading a text and meditating on it.

Here's a link to Ajikan meditation:
http://www.koyasan.or.jp/en/experience/

FYI the title of the Lotus Sutra isn't a mantra, it's the title of the book full stop and has it's own immense power as the Lotus Sutra says every word is a Buddha. A mantra is a whole different thing entirely...
gassho
Rory

[sillyrabbit]

Om, is supposed to be some sort of participation in the sound-vibrations of the universe/"true reality", right? Is the Hindu Om and the Buddhist Om the same thing? What is a Buddhist Om in reference to?

I don't think there is a such thing as a "Buddhist OM" and "Hindu OM", only the concept of OM as we know it originating in India.

[Caoimhghín]

Om, is supposed to be some sort of participation in the sound-vibrations of the universe/"true reality", right? Is the Hindu Om and the Buddhist Om the same thing? What is a Buddhist Om in reference to?

I don't think there is a such thing as a "Buddhist OM" and "Hindu OM", only the concept of OM as we know it originating in India.

At the same time though, Hinduism isn't Buddhism and Buddhism isn't Hinduism. There are profoundly different ontologies and metaphysics at play between the two. Is the Buddhism "Om" representative of Brahman? If the two terms, Buddhist and Hindu, are interchangeable?

[sillyrabbit]

Om, is supposed to be some sort of participation in the sound-vibrations of the universe/"true reality", right? Is the Hindu Om and the Buddhist Om the same thing? What is a Buddhist Om in reference to?

I don't think there is a such thing as a "Buddhist OM" and "Hindu OM", only the concept of OM as we know it originating in India.

At the same time though, Hinduism isn't Buddhism and Buddhism isn't Hinduism. There are profoundly different ontologies and metaphysics at play between the two. Is the Buddhism "Om" representative of Brahman? If the two terms, Buddhist and Hindu, are interchangeable?

I see what you mean, but "Hinduism" (as a concept) isn't even "Hinduism" (as a practice)...

I think that OM is an articulation of "Reality" in both cultures (and everywhere...), and the conceptions beyond the syllable itself is where the different interpretations are.

With that said though, I'm not sure the ontologies of dharmic traditions can be separated so neatly. For example, I really wouldn't say there is a "Buddhist Ganesha" and a "Hindu Ganesha", even though both Buddhists and Hindus pay homage to him as a benevolent deva.

But back to topic: I think that OM is a seed syllable in its basic form, and what it ultimately is really isn't dependent on who articulates it, hence "Buddhist OM" and "Hindu OM" is not an actual distinction. A Buddhist temple near me gave out "Hindu OM" stickers for New Year's, but then do they become "Buddhist OM"s? That kind of thing.

As for what it ultimately is, I think one would have to recite it to really find out.

[Caoimhghín]

With that said though, I'm not sure the ontologies of dharmic traditions can be separated so neatly. For example, I really wouldn't say there is a "Buddhist Ganesha" and a "Hindu Ganesha", even though both Buddhists and Hindus pay homage to him as a benevolent deva.

Oh there are definitely overlaps and shares conceptions between the two teachings, or rather, to be more honest about the extreme plurality present in both Hinduism and Buddhism, there are overlaps between certain schools/practices of certain Buddhisms and certain beliefs/practices of certain Hinduisms. Older Indian Buddhisms were particularly syncretic with Hinduism, as can be expected, check out the Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāraṇī, for an example of this

Namo ratnatrayāya.
Nama āryāvalokiteśvarāya bodhisattvāya mahāsattvāya mahākārunikāya.
Om sarvabhayaśodhanāya tasya namaskrtvā imu Āryavalokiteśvarā tava namo Nīlakantha.
Hṛdayam vartayisyāmi sarvārthasādhanam śubham ajeyam sarvabhūtānām bhavamārgaviśodhakam.

Tadyathā: Om Ālokādhipati lokātikrānta.
Ehy mahābodhisattva sarpasarpa smarasmara hrdayam.
Kurukuru karma dhurudhuru vijayate mahāvijayate.
Dharadhara dhārinīrāja calacala mama vimalāmūrtte.
Ehiehi chindachinda aras pracali vaśavaśam pranāśaya.
Huluhulu smara huluhulu sarasara sirisiri surusuru.
Bodhiyabodhiya bodhayabodhaya maitriya Nīlakantha dehi me darsanam.
Praharāyamānāya svāhā siddhāya svāhā mahāsiddhāya svāhā siddhayogīśvarāya svāhā.
Nīlakanthāya svāhā varāhamukhāya svāhā narasimhamukhāya svāha.
Gadāhastāya svāhā cakrahastāya svāhā padmahastāya svāhā.
Nīlakanthapāndarāya svāhā Mahātali Śankaraya svāhā.

Adoration of the triple Gem.
Adoration to the noble Lord who looks down, the enlightened sentient being, the great being, the merciful one.
Oṃ. Having paid adoration to One who dispels all fears, the noble Avalokiteśvarā, adoration to the blue-necked one.
I shall enunciate the heart dhāraṇī which ensures all purpose, is pure and invincible for all beings, and which purifies the path of existence.

Like this: Oṃ! Lord of Effulgence, the World-Transcending One.
Come, great bodhisattva, descend. Please remember my heart dhāraṇī.
Do, do the work. Hold fast, hold fast, Victor, the great Victor.
Hold on, hold on, King of the Dharani. Move, move onto my spotless image.
Come, come, the vow, the vow of the admantine king, destroy, destroy every poison.
Quick-quick, please remember, quick-quick. Descend-descend, descend-descend, descend-descend.
Being enlightened, being enlightened; enlighten me, enlighten me. Merciful Blue-necked One appear unto me.
To you who sees us, hail! To the Successful one hail! To the Great Successful one hail! To the Successful Lord of the yogis, hail!
To the Blue-necked one hail! To the Boar-faced One hail! To Man-Lion faced One hail!
To one who bears the mace in his hand, hail! To the holder of discus in his hand, hail! To One who sports a lotus in his hand, hail!
To Blue-necked One smeared with holy ashes, hail! To the mighty auspicious one, hail!

(Nīlakaṇṭha Dhāraṇī)

"Blue-necked one". "Smeared with holy ashes". This could easily be a text devoted to Shiva with just a few adjustments, if one ignores the BHS and treats all Sanskrits are equally Hindu.

[Minobu]

I always thought that Om was supposed to be the true sound or vibration of the Universe.

Then there is a school of thought that it is more AUM ...

and then the school of thought it is part of the body speech and mind of the Buddhas.. Om Ah Hum

Wasn't Avolikiteshvara first introduced in the Lotus Sutra...might be wrong on that..

When I first started Buddhist anything I was chanting Om Mani Padme Hum.

Then when I got into Nichiren Shonin's Dharma i thought they both have six syllables and they both talk of the lotus...

Avolikiteshvara is the Bodhisattva or to some A Buddha already ,of Compassion....so maybe He is The Jewel in the Lotus Sutra/ the Compassion aspect

[Malcolm]

I always thought that Om was supposed to be the true sound or vibration of the Universe.

Oṃ simply means "auspicious."

Then there is a school of thought that it is more AUM ...

Not in Buddhist texts.

Then when I got into Nichiren Shonin's Dharma i thought they both have six syllables and they both talk of the lotus...

Pundarika is a white lotus; Padma is a red lotus. Different plants altogether.

[Minobu]

I always thought that Om was supposed to be the true sound or vibration of the Universe.

Oṃ simply means "auspicious."

Then there is a school of thought that it is more AUM ...

Not in Buddhist texts.

Then when I got into Nichiren Shonin's Dharma i thought they both have six syllables and they both talk of the lotus...

Pundarika is a white lotus; Padma is a red lotus. Different plants altogether.

Thanks Malcolm.

So in Buddhist terms do the colour of the lotus blossoms have meaning

[Malcolm]

I always thought that Om was supposed to be the true sound or vibration of the Universe.

Oṃ simply means "auspicious."

Then there is a school of thought that it is more AUM ...

Not in Buddhist texts.

Then when I got into Nichiren Shonin's Dharma i thought they both have six syllables and they both talk of the lotus...

Pundarika is a white lotus; Padma is a red lotus. Different plants altogether.

Thanks Malcolm.

So in Buddhist terms do the colour of the lotus blossoms have meaning

Yes, definitely. Padma shows that Avalokiteśvara belongs to the lotus family of buddhas and bodhisattvas. The Pundarika is a symbol of purity.

[Caoimhghín]

Oṃ simply means "auspicious."

Why do you think it means that?

[Malcolm]

Oṃ simply means "auspicious."

Why do you think it means that?

Because that is how it is universally explained by Buddhist Panditas.