Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

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Coëmgenu
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Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:52 am

Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Sentient Light
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:34 pm

No, I'm fairly certain it appears in the texts as written, since many of these texts also include the term "bodhisattva" as is.

In Asian cultures, it's not uncommon to show reverence by calling one's self the child and the revered being the parent. More than that, disciples of the Buddha-dharma are the Buddha's sons and daughters in that they "inherit" the dharma and its lineage.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:48 pm

There are also sutra, commentary, etc. IIRC that specifically cover how one becomes "a child of the Jina(s)" etc. after taking refuge, I think the general statement is pretty common.
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
Where do you find "son of Buddha"?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:05 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
No, it is a translation of jinaputra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
No, it is a translation of jinaputra.
Isn't jinaputra an epithet for bodhisattvas?

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by crazy-man » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:15 am

jinaputra जिनपुत्र
Definition: m. Name of a bodhi-sattva-
http://sanskritdictionary.com/jinaputra/87240/1

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... /Jinaputra
JEFFREY HOPKINS DICTIONARY
Hopkins' Translations: Conqueror's child; Conqueror-child [i.e., Bodhisattva]
Others' Translations: {C}son of the Jina
Sanskrit: {C,MSA}jina-putra; {MSA}jinātma-ja

RANGJUNG YESHE DICTIONARY
buddha-child, buddha-son, jina putra. bodhisattva, a Buddha-son, child of a conqueror, prince, bodhisattva, the victorious ones and their heirs / sons and daughters, the heirs / sons and daughters of the victorious ones; Jinaputra, son of the Victorious One, (Syn. Bodhisattva) spiritual heir/ child of the victorious ones; victorious one's child / son; Offspring of the Buddhas or Conquerors: Bodhisattvas

RICHARD BARON DICTIONARY
spiritual heir/ child of the victorious ones

JIM VALBY DICTIONARY
prince, sons of the victorious ones, son of a king or prince or chief, son of a buddha, bodhisattva, prince, jinaputra
http://dictionary.thlib.org/internal_de ... ode=browse

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:56 am

crazy-man wrote:
jinaputra जिनपुत्र
Definition: m. Name of a bodhi-sattva-
http://sanskritdictionary.com/jinaputra/87240/1

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... /Jinaputra
JEFFREY HOPKINS DICTIONARY
Hopkins' Translations: Conqueror's child; Conqueror-child [i.e., Bodhisattva]
Others' Translations: {C}son of the Jina
Sanskrit: {C,MSA}jina-putra; {MSA}jinātma-ja

RANGJUNG YESHE DICTIONARY
buddha-child, buddha-son, jina putra. bodhisattva, a Buddha-son, child of a conqueror, prince, bodhisattva, the victorious ones and their heirs / sons and daughters, the heirs / sons and daughters of the victorious ones; Jinaputra, son of the Victorious One, (Syn. Bodhisattva) spiritual heir/ child of the victorious ones; victorious one's child / son; Offspring of the Buddhas or Conquerors: Bodhisattvas

RICHARD BARON DICTIONARY
spiritual heir/ child of the victorious ones

JIM VALBY DICTIONARY
prince, sons of the victorious ones, son of a king or prince or chief, son of a buddha, bodhisattva, prince, jinaputra
http://dictionary.thlib.org/internal_de ... ode=browse
Padma Karpo Translation Committee (Lama Tony Duff):
>> རྒྱལ་སྲས་
>> <noun> 1) Abbrev. of rgyal po`i sras meaning "prince", the son of a king. 2) "Conqueror-son" or "conquerors-son". Abbrev. of rgyal ba`i sras. Translation of the Sanskrit "jinaputra" literally meaning "son(s) of the conqueror(s)" which is a common epithet for bodhisatvas. The bodhisatvas are the sons of the conquerors who will one day themselves become buddhas. The term is sometimes translated incorrectly as "buddha sons" or, even worse, as "bodhisatva(s)".
Which is confusing because he says it's an epithet for bodhisattvas, but that "bodhisattvas" is a bad translation. I've also sometimes seen rigs kyi bu translated as "bodhisattva", but apparently not all translators like this either.

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:53 am

Queequeg wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
Where do you find "son of Buddha"?
A few places. A crazy man joined DhammaWheel claiming to be God a while ago and "I am a Buddha's son" was one of his things he liked to say. I thought it was an odd expression. But then I found it again in some SGI literature I was reading back when I was vaguely interested in joining and I figured maybe it was a SGI thing, some idiomatic translation of "bodhisattvas" to make stress the 'humanity-aspect' of the bodhisattva ideal SGI is founded on, if that makes any sense. Then I found a (not crazy) user here named Son_of_Buddha. They I found it in the Burton Watson Lotus Sutra. So I figured it must be a well-established term I am not as familiar with.

From the other responses here it looks like it might be more common in Tibetan Buddhism.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:44 am

tomamundsen wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?
No, it is a translation of jinaputra.
Isn't jinaputra an epithet for bodhisattvas?
Yes, but it is not a translation of bodhisattva.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:45 am

Coëmgenu wrote: Then I found a (not crazy) user here named Son_of_Buddha.
No, this guy is pretty crazy, in fact.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: Then I found a (not crazy) user here named Son_of_Buddha.
No, this guy is pretty crazy, in fact.
Well I didn't want to be making assumptions about people I don't know and gossiping about other users behind their back unless they are gone, like the crazy man who thought he both was and met God.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:40 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: Then I found a (not crazy) user here named Son_of_Buddha.
No, this guy is pretty crazy, in fact.
Well I didn't want to be making assumptions about people I don't know and gossiping about other users behind their back unless they are gone, like the crazy man who thought he both was and met God.
Some of Son of Buddha's posts remain visible on DW (one can trust that many were removed because they violated ToS), and from that basis one can assert that the content of his posts includes a generous helping of the crazy.

Someone tried to reproduce one of his moves, quoting a bit of the Nirvana Sutra out of context to suggest that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the existence of a "true self" or atman, recently on DW. Look in the "Ayn Rand Sucks" thread. So you can say that Son of Buddha lives on...

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:51 pm

DGA wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Well I didn't want to be making assumptions about people I don't know and gossiping about other users behind their back unless they are gone, like the crazy man who thought he both was and met God.
Some of Son of Buddha's posts remain visible on DW (one can trust that many were removed because they violated ToS), and from that basis one can assert that the content of his posts includes a generous helping of the crazy.

Someone tried to reproduce one of his moves, quoting a bit of the Nirvana Sutra out of context to suggest that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the existence of a "true self" or atman, recently on DW. Look in the "Ayn Rand Sucks" thread. So you can say that Son of Buddha lives on...
Well fair enough. I will concede this fellow was objectively crazy then. I didn't know he was banned and didn't think it would be the nicest to have a thread calling someone crazy outright, even if that label was warranted.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:55 pm

Coëmgenu wrote: I will concede this fellow was objectively crazy then. I didn't know he was banned and didn't think it would be the nicest to have a thread calling someone crazy outright, even if that label was warranted.
I think that's right too. It's rarely helpful to make it personal.

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Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha

Post by jmlee369 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote: From the other responses here it looks like it might be more common in Tibetan Buddhism.
The term itself is widely used in the major Mahayana sutras like the Avatamsaka, Lotus, etc. It is, as other users have mentioned, another title for bodhisattvas. However, I'm not quite sure it's neccesarily a mistranslation of jinaputra (Conqueror's son) because the term Buddha-putra and Buddha-suta are also attested in Sanskrit manuscripts (page 10, note 39) and Tibetan translations and I'm pretty sure the Chinese translators were not so clumsy as to gloss jina to buddha when they use Buddha's son (佛子) so consistently in the major translations. Buddha's son is how Korean Buddhists refer to themselves as Buddhists (on the assumption that being a Mahayana country, every Buddhist is a bodhisattva-in-training), and it is commonly used in Chinese liturgies as well when addressing the congregation (although I note that the Buddhist Text Translation Society translates it as "disciple[s] of the Buddha").

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