Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

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Coëmgenu
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Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:40 am

Is the Awakening of Buddha's all identical? They share the same Dharmakāya, so I suspect the answer is yes.

Here is my more controversial question. If the Awakening of all Buddhas are identical, than are all Buddhas, truthfully, actually the same Buddha?
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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Wayfarer
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:50 am

Judgements of 'The same' and 'different' can only be made in respect of things that can be compared.

As the Buddha's realisation is incomparable, then the question does not apply.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:05 am

Wayfarer wrote:Judgements of 'The same' and 'different' can only be made in respect of things that can be compared.

As the Buddha's realisation is incomparable, then the question does not apply.
If two or more things can't be compared, doesn't that mean that, on some level, they are the same? They have a profound unity.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:08 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:Judgements of 'The same' and 'different' can only be made in respect of things that can be compared.

As the Buddha's realisation is incomparable, then the question does not apply.
If two or more things can't be compared, doesn't that mean that, on some level, they are the same? They have a profound unity.
I'm not trying to be contrarian here. I am just trying to present a notion and see if it holds up to public scrutiny. I don't claim to be a doctor of dharma.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

jmlee369
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby jmlee369 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:47 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Is the Awakening of Buddha's all identical? They share the same Dharmakāya, so I suspect the answer is yes.

Here is my more controversial question. If the Awakening of all Buddhas are identical, than are all Buddhas, truthfully, actually the same Buddha?


While the nature of the Dharmakaya may be the same, it manifests individually in each Buddha's mindstream separately, so they do not share a single Dharmakaya, so to speak.

And certain strands of Mahayana Buddhology do tend towards the notion that all Buddhas are ultimately one Buddha, (candidates for this vary along scriptural [and in Japan, sectarian] lines, such as Vairchana in Shingon/Avatamsaka, Amitabha in Jodo, Shakyamuni in the Lotus schools, etc) but generally speaking, they are viewed as individual sentient beings who at some point achieved Buddhahood, then manifest freely while abiding in neither samsara or nirvana (hence the notion in some Mahayana sutras that Shakyamuni attained enlightenment a long time ago, that Avalokitesvara and Manjushri, while currently manifesting as bodhisattvas, are actually manifestations of old Buddhas, etc)

I don't quite have the sources on hand to support my statements, but the Dharmakaya is (at least by one Gelug definition) emptiness + mindstream, and mindstreams are individual. Buddhists need to be particularly careful about any monist tendencies that can creep in, since it is wrong view.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:31 pm

jmlee369 wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the Awakening of Buddha's all identical? They share the same Dharmakāya, so I suspect the answer is yes.

Here is my more controversial question. If the Awakening of all Buddhas are identical, than are all Buddhas, truthfully, actually the same Buddha?


While the nature of the Dharmakaya may be the same, it manifests individually in each Buddha's mindstream separately, so they do not share a single Dharmakaya, so to speak.

And certain strands of Mahayana Buddhology do tend towards the notion that all Buddhas are ultimately one Buddha, (candidates for this vary along scriptural [and in Japan, sectarian] lines, such as Vairchana in Shingon/Avatamsaka, Amitabha in Jodo, Shakyamuni in the Lotus schools, etc) but generally speaking, they are viewed as individual sentient beings who at some point achieved Buddhahood, then manifest freely while abiding in neither samsara or nirvana (hence the notion in some Mahayana sutras that Shakyamuni attained enlightenment a long time ago, that Avalokitesvara and Manjushri, while currently manifesting as bodhisattvas, are actually manifestations of old Buddhas, etc)

I don't quite have the sources on hand to support my statements, but the Dharmakaya is (at least by one Gelug definition) emptiness + mindstream, and mindstreams are individual. Buddhists need to be particularly careful about any monist tendencies that can creep in, since it is wrong view.
Fair enough. I think that saying all Buddhas have the same Awakening and teach the same subtle Dharma, however, is far from saying that all fundamental natures are one in union.

I do see where you are going though. And certainly there has to be a reason as to why we have inherited a tradition that does have multiple Buddhas who are given distinct properties and differentiation in how we talk about them, as unified as their Awakening and/or teachings may or may not be.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:44 pm

jmlee369 wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the Awakening of Buddha's all identical? They share the same Dharmakāya, so I suspect the answer is yes.

Here is my more controversial question. If the Awakening of all Buddhas are identical, than are all Buddhas, truthfully, actually the same Buddha?


While the nature of the Dharmakaya may be the same, it manifests individually in each Buddha's mindstream separately, so they do not share a single Dharmakaya, so to speak.

And certain strands of Mahayana Buddhology do tend towards the notion that all Buddhas are ultimately one Buddha, (candidates for this vary along scriptural [and in Japan, sectarian] lines, such as Vairchana in Shingon/Avatamsaka, Amitabha in Jodo, Shakyamuni in the Lotus schools, etc) but generally speaking, they are viewed as individual sentient beings who at some point achieved Buddhahood, then manifest freely while abiding in neither samsara or nirvana (hence the notion in some Mahayana sutras that Shakyamuni attained enlightenment a long time ago, that Avalokitesvara and Manjushri, while currently manifesting as bodhisattvas, are actually manifestations of old Buddhas, etc)

I don't quite have the sources on hand to support my statements, but the Dharmakaya is (at least by one Gelug definition) emptiness + mindstream, and mindstreams are individual. Buddhists need to be particularly careful about any monist tendencies that can creep in, since it is wrong view.


:good: All Buddhas are the same nature but not the same.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:30 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
jmlee369 wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Is the Awakening of Buddha's all identical? They share the same Dharmakāya, so I suspect the answer is yes.

Here is my more controversial question. If the Awakening of all Buddhas are identical, than are all Buddhas, truthfully, actually the same Buddha?


While the nature of the Dharmakaya may be the same, it manifests individually in each Buddha's mindstream separately, so they do not share a single Dharmakaya, so to speak.

And certain strands of Mahayana Buddhology do tend towards the notion that all Buddhas are ultimately one Buddha, (candidates for this vary along scriptural [and in Japan, sectarian] lines, such as Vairchana in Shingon/Avatamsaka, Amitabha in Jodo, Shakyamuni in the Lotus schools, etc) but generally speaking, they are viewed as individual sentient beings who at some point achieved Buddhahood, then manifest freely while abiding in neither samsara or nirvana (hence the notion in some Mahayana sutras that Shakyamuni attained enlightenment a long time ago, that Avalokitesvara and Manjushri, while currently manifesting as bodhisattvas, are actually manifestations of old Buddhas, etc)

I don't quite have the sources on hand to support my statements, but the Dharmakaya is (at least by one Gelug definition) emptiness + mindstream, and mindstreams are individual. Buddhists need to be particularly careful about any monist tendencies that can creep in, since it is wrong view.


:good: All Buddhas are the same nature but not the same.
I guess this interpretation harmonizes well the differences between Buddhatā and Buddhadhātu as well.
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

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cj39
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Re: Is the Awakening of all Buddha's identical?

Postby cj39 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:01 pm

If I was forced to take a stab at this, I would suggest that maybe the Buddhas exist in a place in which numbers do not apply. Not one, not not one, not many, not not many... We like to be able to categorize things. Our minds are like the bed of Procrustes. We are always chopping off things that are too long or stretching out things that fall short, but Thusness is things as they are. One of my take aways from the Heart Sutra is just go beyond conceptual thinking.


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