Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Minobu
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Minobu »

I read the article a few days ago. I got out of it that Nichiren Shonin wasn't really into the idea of living your life to go the pure land like all of His contemporaries willed on the masses. And yet He comforted grieving disciples with talk that loved ones were in the pure land of eagle peak. I get that .

I've met idiots that fanatically tell someone crippled in a wheel chair it is their karma from the past and they did horrible things and deserve this...It's simply not the right thing to say in teaching...And yet it is ok to tell some beautiful famous rich actor they deserve this due to their past lives. It's like low level moronic stuff for beginners to understand.

If you practice this Lotus Buddhism, you actually don't concern yourself with going to the pure land. For me it is not really what The Buddha intended and is more of a comfort thing , or an expedient device used to create good action, thought and volition in the lives of the masses.
Nothing wrong with it, it serves itself well.

There is nothing wrong with the Christian mode either, it serve the same paradigm , and I believe is here due to the Buddha's Turning of the Dharma Wheel.

I think Nichiren used a shock and awe approach when it came to describing what the teachers of the pure land practice would succumb to in order to show people like myself what we are dealing with with a lot of these masters of Buddhist thought.
It's just simply heart breaking to see people get upset about it to the point they tried to kill Nichiren Shonin.

please don't shoot the messenger sort of deal.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Queequeg »

The problem at the time was the exaggerated way in which concern with death and pure land rebirth had overshadowed all other concerns. This is not an exaggeration: in the late Heian period, ritual suicide had actually become pious devotion. And lore had developed that witnessing a ritual suicide was a beneficial experience. There are stories of this turning into grotesque happenings, with people announcing their intensions so that people could gather and watch. That was the extreme, but short of that were people becoming obsessed with moment of death consciousness that it actually became a reason to stress out. Even a life of devout practice could be ruined by a moment of distress at death. This just added pressure to the distress of that moment, far from being a teaching to comfort the dying.

I understand some pure land teachers tried to deemphasize the moment of death. I would guess it was in response to these extremes.

Nichiren and others criticized this trend.

Regardless of what modern scholars argue, the hagiographies of Pure Land practitioners committing suicide were circulating, including the hagiographies of Shandao, the man who's writings were most influencing the Pure Land practices of the day. Nichiren reinterpreting these pious hagiographies to criticize the practice appears in this context.

The comments about Subakarasimha address another grotesque practice, cults surrounding the mummified remains of deceased masters. Worshipping the blackened remains of a long dead person? Pointing out the appearance of their blackened bodies, regardless of how they might have died or how long ago, does conform to the descriptions of bad deaths. As far as I know, theres no exception for mummification. Mummy worship - another grotesque obsession with death.

It's not like Nichiren was the only person critical of the obsession with death and the dead that resulted in extreme practices.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote:Even a life of devout practice could be ruined by a moment of distress at death. .
This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.

People should be very concerned with their state of mind at the moment death. Being in a state of anger or attachment at the moment of death can ruin a life of devout practice.

There can be great benefit in mummifying the bodies of great masters.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Malcolm wrote: This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.
could you you show me where Lord Nagarjuna states this. As you know I thirst for knowledge from Lord Nagarjuna. anything more to add from this statement would be appreciated.
People should be very concerned with their state of mind at the moment death. Being in a state of anger or attachment at the moment of death can ruin a life of devout practice.
From a Lotus Buddhist perspective it is more important on how you lived your life .The experience at the last moments of death would not toss it all out the window from a confused deathbed moment.

Where is the compassion and protection in that being the case. Surely as stated by Master Nichiren Shonin that no less than a thousand Buddhas will await and guide you at the moment of your death is more the actual reality of ourselves and our relationship with Lotus Sutra and all of the Beings who are there at Eagle Peak. these are The Buddha's Retinue and protectors who guide us and help protect us , and watch over the children of the Buddha who embrace The Lotus Sutra as promised in the Lotus.

At the time of Nichiren Shonin people were told to hold unto a multi colored scarf attatched to a Statue of a Buddha and chant Nembutsu to enter a pure land. Anyone who lived a life even as as a murderous soldier would attain this from the practice.

If thats Buddhism , I'm confused, it sounds more political and contrived to control the masses, not unlike the last rites of the Catholic church.
There can be great benefit in mummifying the bodies of great masters.
I never heard of this in Buddhism, how so ?
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.
could you you show me where Lord Nagarjuna states this. As you know I thirst for knowledge from Lord Nagarjuna. anything more to add from this statement would be appreciated.
People should be very concerned with their state of mind at the moment death. Being in a state of anger or attachment at the moment of death can ruin a life of devout practice.
From a Lotus Buddhist perspective it is more important on how you lived your life .The experience at the last moments of death would not toss it all out the window from a confused deathbed moment.
Yeah, actually it can. It has nothing do to with what kind if Buddhism you follow. It has to do with your state of mind at death.
There can be great benefit in mummifying the bodies of great masters.
I never heard of this in Buddhism, how so ?
They are relics.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Minobu »

I 'm aware that there are certain tricks people have learned to do at the point of death.
I'm sure that one would have to be fairly enlightened to them to actually enact them. Not your everyday buy the initiation and voila your set to go.


Malcolm wrote: This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.
could you you show me where Lord Nagarjuna states this. As you know I thirst for knowledge from Lord Nagarjuna. anything more to add from this statement would be appreciated.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Isn't this a thread about the article in the first post and not bizarre drive-by critiques of Pure Land Buddhism?
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote:I 'm aware that there are certain tricks people have learned to do at the point of death.
I'm sure that one would have to be fairly enlightened to them to actually enact them. Not your everyday buy the initiation and voila your set to go.


Malcolm wrote: This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.
could you you show me where Lord Nagarjuna states this. As you know I thirst for knowledge from Lord Nagarjuna. anything more to add from this statement would be appreciated.

He states it very clearly in the MMK, karma chapter. He states that one's next rebirth is determined by the ripening of special karmic trace at the point of death.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Minobu wrote:I read the article a few days ago. I got out of it that Nichiren Shonin wasn't really into the idea of living your life to go the pure land like all of His contemporaries willed on the masses.
You mean his "predecessors". And they did not "will it on the masses", this is nothing more than willful misrepresentation. Honen did not believe in shakubuku. He answered the questions of people who came to him. The desire for birth in the Pure Land goes back to the beginnings of Buddhism in Japan.
Minobu wrote:If you practice this Lotus Buddhism, you actually don't concern yourself with going to the pure land. For me it is not really what The Buddha intended and is more of a comfort thing , or an expedient device used to create good action, thought and volition in the lives of the masses.
Nothing wrong with it, it serves itself well.
And this is just your incorrect opinion. Frankly, this opinion doesn't stand up when one actually dives into the sutras.
Minobu wrote:I think Nichiren used a shock and awe approach when it came to describing what the teachers of the pure land practice would succumb to in order to show people like myself what we are dealing with with a lot of these masters of Buddhist thought.
It's just simply heart breaking to see people get upset about it to the point they tried to kill Nichiren Shonin.
It was nothing more than willful misrepresentation to make a point. People tried to kill Nichiren because he tried forced conversion (shakubuku) on people. Your notion that he was attacked for his idealism is a fairy tale. In fact, he used pressure tactics, laced with threats, and it got him in trouble with the law.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Malcolm wrote:He states it very clearly in the MMK, karma chapter. He states that one's next rebirth is determined by the ripening of special karmic trace at the point of death.
To my understanding, the buddhas and bodhisattvas compassionately appear before the dying practitioner to establish this settled mind, at least in the PL tradition since Nagarjuna is a patriarch.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:I 'm aware that there are certain tricks people have learned to do at the point of death.
I'm sure that one would have to be fairly enlightened to them to actually enact them. Not your everyday buy the initiation and voila your set to go.
Malcolm wrote: This is per Nāgārjuna, who observes that the dominant factor in throwing karma that determines your next rebirth is your state of mind at the moment of death.
could you you show me where Lord Nagarjuna states this. As you know I thirst for knowledge from Lord Nagarjuna. anything more to add from this statement would be appreciated.
He states it very clearly in the MMK, karma chapter. He states that one's next rebirth is determined by the ripening of special karmic trace at the point of death.
It's stated by the Buddha himself in the Nibbana Sutta and reiterated by Nagasena in the Milindipanha as well.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Queequeg wrote:This is not an exaggeration: in the late Heian period, ritual suicide had actually become pious devotion. And lore had developed that witnessing a ritual suicide was a beneficial experience. There are stories of this turning into grotesque happenings, with people announcing their intensions so that people could gather and watch.
This was actively spoken out against by Shan-tao, Honen, and Shinran.
Queequeg wrote:I understand some pure land teachers tried to deemphasize the moment of death. I would guess it was in response to these extremes.
Genshin and Ryukan are the only Pure Land teachers who really emphasized the moment of death.
Queequeg wrote:Regardless of what modern scholars argue, the hagiographies of Pure Land practitioners committing suicide were circulating, including the hagiographies of Shandao, the man who's writings were most influencing the Pure Land practices of the day.
Blatant misrepresentation going on here. The widely circulating biography of ShanTao said he died peacefully like I said. Nichiren dug this writing up and presented it as truth, when it was nothing but falsehood.
Queequeg wrote:Nichiren reinterpreting these pious hagiographies to criticize the practice appears in this context.
Not reinterpreting, "blatantly rewriting with fabricated details" is more correct.
Queequeg wrote:The comments about Subakarasimha address another grotesque practice, cults surrounding the mummified remains of deceased masters. Worshipping the blackened remains of a long dead person? Pointing out the appearance of their blackened bodies, regardless of how they might have died or how long ago, does conform to the descriptions of bad deaths. As far as I know, theres no exception for mummification. Mummy worship - another grotesque obsession with death.
Actually if you read the passage in the article, Nichiren himself bought into the "auspicious signs" of the conditions of one's corpse. He made a rather big deal of it, yet his own corpse was burned the day after he died. Wonder why that is?
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Malcolm »

Admin_PC wrote:... yet his own corpse was burned the day after he died. Wonder why that is?
Poor guy. Bad move, it takes three days for consciousness to leave the body.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Admin_PC wrote:
Minobu wrote:I read the article a few days ago. I got out of it that Nichiren Shonin wasn't really into the idea of living your life to go the pure land like all of His contemporaries willed on the masses.
You mean his "predecessors". And they did not "will it on the masses", this is nothing more than willful misrepresentation. Honen did not believe in shakubuku. He answered the questions of people who came to him. The desire for birth in the Pure Land goes back to the beginnings of Buddhism in Japan.
Well yeah His predecessors as well. The government dictated and funded this Pure Land Practice. The desire for a pure land at the end of your death is something that shows up all throughout human history and is still used today.

Do you honestly believe that ten Nembutsu chants on your deathbed will open up the "Pearly Gates" for you. thats it...????
Minobu wrote:If you practice this Lotus Buddhism, you actually don't concern yourself with going to the pure land. For me it is not really what The Buddha intended and is more of a comfort thing , or an expedient device used to create good action, thought and volition in the lives of the masses.
Nothing wrong with it, it serves itself well.
Admin_PC wrote:And this is just your incorrect opinion. Frankly, this opinion doesn't stand up when one actually dives into the sutras.
From a Lotus Sutra point of view it is quite spot on to not concern yourself with entry into the Pure Land. and yet Nichiren Shonin used it to comfort many of His disciples .
Minobu wrote:I think Nichiren used a shock and awe approach when it came to describing what the teachers of the pure land practice would succumb to in order to show people like myself what we are dealing with with a lot of these masters of Buddhist thought.
It's just simply heart breaking to see people get upset about it to the point they tried to kill Nichiren Shonin.
Admin_PC wrote:It was nothing more than willful misrepresentation to make a point. People tried to kill Nichiren because he tried forced conversion (shakubuku) on people. Your notion that he was attacked for his idealism is a fairy tale. In fact, he used pressure tactics, laced with threats, and it got him in trouble with the law.
Oh I'm sure there were many machinations that led to Nichiren Shonin being accosted and exiled and such. But The ronin that took Him to the Beach to behead Him got a surprise didn't they.

Look kind sir, i don't get this animosity you seem to have towards this Votary of The Lotus Sutra. At the end of the day if it offends someone's faith then maybe their faith isn't so in tact. there is a lot to learn from Him. He like i stated in another thread seems to understand the corruption of Buddhist Thought and it's use by governments to control and appease the masses. It really jives with what they teach in Univercity these days about the use of the promise of heaven on deathbeds. This man Jared Diamond professor of geography and physiology wrote about what I claim to be true.

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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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:coffee:
Minobu wrote: The government dictated and funded this Pure Land Practice.
Do you have any evidence in support of this claim?
Do you honestly believe that ten Nembutsu chants on your deathbed will open up the "Pearly Gates" for you.

Go back and reread this thread for an answer to this question.
From a Lotus Sutra point of view it is quite spot on to not concern yourself with entry into the Pure Land. and yet Nichiren Shonin used it to comfort many of His disciples
Define "lotus sutra point of view." Zhiyi invented the emphasis on the Lotus Sutra that you take for granted as true, and he strongly emphasized Pure Land teaching and practice. Going back to that J Stone article at the start of this thread: do you think Nichiren was wrong to teach that it was possible to be reborn in the Pure Land of Shaykyamuni Buddha?
Look kind sir, i don't get this animosity you seem to have towards this Votary of The Lotus Sutra. At the end of the day if it offends someone's faith then maybe their faith isn't so in tact. there is a lot to learn from Him.
Passive-aggressive much? It seems to me that you are attempting to dismiss criticism of Nichiren by accusing a critic of malice and animosity, and putting his own faith and practice in doubt. it's a lazy and unconvincing way to make an argument, and a dick move.
He like i stated in another thread seems to understand the corruption of Buddhist Thought and it's use by governments to control and appease the masses.
are you accusing Pure Land practice of being a corruption of Buddhist thought intended as a means of coercion by the government? If so, do you have any evidence in support of this claim?
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Minobu »

DGA wrote::coffee:


Look kind sir, i don't get this animosity you seem to have towards this Votary of The Lotus Sutra. At the end of the day if it offends someone's faith then maybe their faith isn't so in tact. there is a lot to learn from Him.
Passive-aggressive much? It seems to me that you are attempting to dismiss criticism of Nichiren by accusing a critic of malice and animosity, and putting his own faith and practice in doubt. it's a lazy and unconvincing way to make an argument, and a dick move.
it was "just saying"
I actually was referring to the time of Nichiren Shonin when they actually took it a step further and tried to kill Him over His opinion. I mean really now , these people were threatened by opinion....
And yes i won't hide behind that and say that I was not implying this holds true for any religious or philosophical discussion..at any time...just saying..

When i wrote that , to be honest I was thinking about the average Hindu and how they don't get upset about other people's religion but rejoice in what ever others use to worship God.
I've had this discussion with Hindus and find it a strength.

also you have no idea the hoops i've jumped through in order to adopt a religious paradigm...drop it and grab another, drop it and grab another...so yeah i know about faith and what happens when one isn't entirely faithful....Arguments ensue and anger towards the other guy's view..etc. people take it personal , and you cannot learn from that podium.

Look at what happened to Nichiren shonin, practically an entire country wanted the guy dead for His view.

and knocking Nichiren Shonin and The Lotus Buddhism is the same thing...only i don't get upset.. I just feel for people and their hopes and aspirations.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Minobu wrote:The government dictated and funded this Pure Land Practice.
You're sorely uninformed on this topic. The government persecuted Nembutsu followers until Toyotomi.
Minobu wrote:The desire for a pure land at the end of your death is something that shows up all throughout human history and is still used today.

Do you honestly believe that ten Nembutsu chants on your deathbed will open up the "Pearly Gates" for you. thats it...????
Again, you're lack of knowledge on the topic is showing. Read up on what happens in the Pure Land. Such a description is very misinformed.
Minobu wrote:Oh I'm sure there were many machinations that led to Nichiren Shonin being accosted and exiled and such. But The ronin that took Him to the Beach to behead Him got a surprise didn't they.
Yeah, he saw a comet and was so superstitious he didn't swing.
Minobu wrote:Look kind sir, i don't get this animosity you seem to have towards this Votary of The Lotus Sutra.
Look kind sir, I don't get this animosity you have for Pure Land Buddhism and don't think this forum is the right place to attack it. Calling someone out for making stuff up in order to throw insults is hardly an attack.
Minobu wrote:At the end of the day if it offends someone's faith then maybe their faith isn't so in tact.
If one's doctrine relies on attacking the views of others, maybe one's doctrine is not so well thought-out.
Minobu wrote:there is a lot to learn from Him.
You're assuming I haven't read his writings. I'm a lot more knowledgeable on his teachings than you are on Pure Land.
Minobu wrote:He like i stated in another thread seems to understand the corruption of Buddhist Thought and it's use by governments to control and appease the masses.
More ignorance flowing from your keyboard. PL teachings are verified in non-PL sutras. Precedents exist in the Nikayas. You really have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

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Minobu wrote:I actually was referring to the time of Nichiren Shonin when they actually took it a step further and tried to kill Him over His opinion. I mean really now , these people were threatened by opinion....
No. He was almost executed for actively trying to subvert the government with the rhetoric of "convert or disaster is coming".
Minobu wrote:When i wrote that , to be honest I was thinking about the average Hindu and how they don't get upset about other people's religion but rejoice in what ever others use to worship God.
I've had this discussion with Hindus and find it a strength.
So it's a strength that you don't attack the views of Hindus so they don't say things that make you upset? LOL
Minobu wrote:also you have no idea the hoops i've jumped through in order to adopt a religious paradigm...drop it and grab another, drop it and grab another...
Sounds like a lot of work.
Minobu wrote:Look at what happened to Nichiren shonin, practically an entire country wanted the guy dead for His view.
They wanted him dead for his actions, not his views. You're continuing to repeat a fantastical story.
Minobu wrote:and knocking Nichiren Shonin and The Lotus Buddhism is the same thing...only i don't get upset.. I just feel for people and their hopes and aspirations.
Since when is firing back against bogus claims & insults knocking someone else's Buddhism? None of us here has gone after his Buddhism, merely his inaccurate and irresponsible statements. The only ones who are attacking any form of Buddhism are you guys.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by 明安 Myoan »

As a Pure Land practitioner, I can see there are inaccuracies, and yet these inaccuracies are causing bitterness and discord.
How silly for a falsehood to cause divide between dharma brothers and sisters.
If there is genuine interest to clear up misunderstandings and remove this source of contention, wouldn't it be better to start a specific thread in the Pure Land subforum?
One can (and should) learn about other dharma schools and learn to respect them.
This is worse than infighting in a family, because we poison the very roots of good we hope to cultivate as Buddhists.
We say on the one hand we will save all beings then turn to those who have made the same aspiration and treat them with scorn.
This is slandering the Three Jewels; it does no one any good at all.

I invite Minobu and any others with doubts over to the PL forum to learn and clarify.
One needn't adopt every practice out there, and learning deepens our appreciation for the dharma as a whole.
Otherwise, if opinions become an expression of the three poisons, best to set them aside for now.
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Re: Nichiren on Who Went to Hell

Post by Minobu »

Admin_PC wrote:
Minobu wrote:Look kind sir, i don't get this animosity you seem to have towards this Votary of The Lotus Sutra.
Look kind sir, I don't get this animosity you have for Pure Land Buddhism and think this forum is the right place to attack it. Calling someone for making stuff up in order to throw insults is hardly an attack.
It isn't animosity. It's my view of it. I was brought up this way and what I know from Lotus Buddhism it melds with my mind set.

I have tried to say that in threads...my opinion, my view , i think, etc.
as for the forum being the right place....you made that clear already... i stopped all talk in the pure land thread you did not want me discussing my views in.

Was the use of Nichiren in the title some sort of bait then. Because it opens up Nichiren's belief in Pure Land training exercises.
If you wish me to stop expressing myself , just ask...i complied with the other request...

but
DGA wrote:This article by J Stone came up in a different context. Here, it is claimed that Nichiren felt that many Buddhist masters of the past and (his) present were destined to hell, having died badly (according to Nichiren). These include ShanTao and Subhakarasimha, among others.

You can read the article for a full catalogue to see if Nichiren sent any patriarchs of your tradition to hell, but before we go there, a question: Are the texts Stone draws on here authoritative? Did Nichiren actually make such claims as this? If so, how do the deaths of those Nichiren castigates compare to Nichiren's own death? If not, is this a kind of frame-up, and if so, who would have authored such documents?

I'm posting this in the general East Asian forum because it concerns Sino-Japanese Buddhism generally, with the hope of a civil conversation.


where am i not being civil?

I don't believe that The Buddha wanted us to live for the Pure Land and such...that does not mean i don't believe in the Pure Lands or heaven realms..
I just don't see it as a path to liberation but a misuse of the doctrine to control people through government interventions.

For me that is what Nichiren saw too , even though He used it to comfort grieving disciples.


gagging me ...i have thoughts on that too...but your wish is my command. this is your home , not mine, i'm a guest.
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