ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

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nichiren-123
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ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by nichiren-123 » Tue May 09, 2017 6:36 pm

I'm trying to get my head round ichinen sanzen. My question might be obvious to other people but I can't make sense of it... so I might as well ask:

From my understanding, in a single moment you are in one of the 10 worlds, but since each world contains the other 9 worlds then in a single moment you are manifesting 10 worlds. But in ichinen sanzen there are supposedly 100 worlds... what am I not seeing?

narhwal90
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by narhwal90 » Tue May 09, 2017 7:58 pm

Each world contains all 10, thus 10 * 10 = 100

* the 10 factors (enumerated at the end of the Hoben chapter)

* 3 factors (5 components, human beings, environment), the product is 3000

The idea is each moment you're someplace in the 3000. A given world might predominate, thus one might be in "hunger" or "learning" etc but the 10 factors and the realms are always part of the experience.

Q did a study thread last year https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23156

discussing a lot of the 10 worlds dynamics, this is one place where Nichiren schools may differ, the Kanjin no Honzon sho is not equally accepted.
Last edited by narhwal90 on Tue May 09, 2017 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Queequeg
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 09, 2017 8:06 pm

It makes sense to start with the source of the teaching on ichinen-sanzen. From Zhiyi's Mohezhikuan/Moho Zhikuan/Maka Shikan/Great Samatha and Vipasyana. Tr. Swanson
[Thus] a single thought includes the ten dharma realms. A single dharma realm includes the [other] ten dharma realms, so there are one hundred dharma realms. One realm includes thirty types of worlds [that is, each of the ten dharma realms are included in each of the three types of worlds: the world of sentient beings, the world of the five skandhas, and various lands], multiplied by one hundred dharma realms. This results in the inclusion of three thousand types of worlds. These three thousand [worlds] exist in a single momentary thought.

If there is no thought, that is the end of the matter. If there is even an ephemeral thought, this includes three thousand [realms]. But we cannot say that the single thought has prior existence, and that all phenomena (sarva-dharma) exist later, nor can we say that all phenomena have prior existence, and that the single thought exists later. For example, it is like a thing that changes through eight aspects [of arising, abiding, changing, and perishing]; it is not that things exist prior to these aspects and are caused to change through them, nor do the aspects exist prior to things and are caused to change through them [but things and their passing through arising, abiding, and so forth occur together]. There can be no priority nor posteriority [since it occurs simultaneously]. It is just that things are said to change by passing through these aspects, and these aspects are said to occur to things.
When they say that each dharma-realm includes the others, this is because a single moment of thought is the entire world of dharmas. This is just the complete implication of dependent origination.

Consider it this way - a single moment of mind is a nexus point to which all reality relates. All of reality refers to the nexus of a single moment of mind. All time, all place, all things, converge and meet at the single moment of mind. The mind is thus all time, all place, all things. The mind is nothing more than a particular vantage point, a vantage point defined by what it is a vantage point of.

I, from the vantage point in the realm of humans, relate to everything in reality - all beings, all things, all Buddhas.

When they talk about the mutual possession of ten worlds, this is what they are talking about. In short hand, Zhiyi describes it as 10 x 10, but actually, its infinity x infinity, because there are infinite dharmas and they all relate to each other.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

nichiren-123
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by nichiren-123 » Wed May 10, 2017 3:56 pm

narhwal90 wrote:Each world contains all 10, thus 10 * 10 = 100
This is where I'm confused.

If you are in ONE world at any point in time but that one world contains the other 9, then surely that means you are in 10 worlds.

so it would be 10 worlds * 10 factors * 3 realms = 300.



Also, I don't understand whether these 3000 realms are all encompassed in a single moment OR if you are in 1 single realm at any moment, out of a choice of 3000?


Hope this elucidates my confusion...

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by narhwal90 » Wed May 10, 2017 7:34 pm

Nichiren reasons some of that out in the Kanjin document, the concept itself dates back to Zhiyi. The idea is each of the 10 worlds contains elements of the other 9- so each world contains itself and 9 others. I generally consider each respective world to be predominate over the others; clearly hunger is a different experience than realization, but the other 9 are never excluded. Though hunger is not the same as realization, there is a realization component to it, as with the other worlds too. I view the 10 Factors and 3 Realms as other dimensions of the ichinen sanzen space, and consider them the ways and means of the manifestation of the worlds.

To take up your you point more closely, if I am predominately in "learning", I am also experiencing the other worlds in some balance. But in another moment I might be in "realization", etc- so ichinen sanzen describes space my mind moves around in- in effect my mind is zipping about in there from moment to moment.

But this is getting into mind game territory which I think is perhaps not the most effective use of the concept. To me the goal of the proposition is to convey the fullness of the present moment; there is no enlightenment to attain because its already there; its there and always was for everyone, no matter where one's life condition is at the given moment. The job at hand is to work the practice to more clearly & consistently express it).

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Minobu
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Minobu » Wed May 10, 2017 7:59 pm

nichiren-123 wrote:
narhwal90 wrote:Each world contains all 10, thus 10 * 10 = 100
This is where I'm confused.

If you are in ONE world at any point in time but that one world contains the other 9, then surely that means you are in 10 worlds.

so it would be 10 worlds * 10 factors * 3 realms = 300.



Also, I don't understand whether these 3000 realms are all encompassed in a single moment OR if you are in 1 single realm at any moment, out of a choice of 3000?


Hope this elucidates my confusion...
try reading that stuff from the vantage point of artistic license ..the whole math thing always was something i put on the back burner

And thought about it this way..

one can be angry in a good way where learning and compassion is involved....there you see 3 worlds at once..
or angry and filled with greed and envy to the point it makes you sick and turns your life to hell....

or
filled with joy you teach stuff whilst learning something and helping others...

multiple worlds creating an event in your daily experience.


as per Buddha being present always in all other nine worlds....i shall leave that for you to get one day....

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Seishin
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Seishin » Thu May 11, 2017 10:57 am

Worrying about the end figure or the mathematics really misses the point of this teaching.....

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by nichiren-123 » Thu May 11, 2017 1:30 pm

Seishin wrote:Worrying about the end figure or the mathematics really misses the point of this teaching.....
So I should try to understand the implications instead?

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Seishin » Thu May 11, 2017 1:57 pm

nichiren-123 wrote: So I should try to understand the implications instead?
Only my opinion, but yes

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 11, 2017 3:59 pm

Agree with Seishin.

The math is a shorthand.

The Lotus Sutra explains that the Buddha makes distinctions in order to help people understand. When the Buddha explains that there are ten realms, its to help people understand the multifarious ways in which beings can appear and the circumstances of those appearances. The Buddha doesn't see the distinctions, except as an expedient.

We, on the other hand, see the world in all kinds of distinctions, most of them built on rank speculation and misapprehension, and then we think those distinctions are real. This is why we're incessantly disappointed and caused to suffer.

Zhiyi also explicitly remarks in numerous instances that the various distinctions are teaching devices.

Nagarjuna says similar.

The point is, what is all this prompting you to see.

In talking about ichinen sanzen, we are talking about the Lotus Sutra and a commentary on it.

"This [Lotus] sutra deals with the original mind [of enlightenment] in the waking state. But because living beings are accustomed to thinking in the mental terms appropriate to a dream state, it borrows the language of the dream state in order to teach the waking state of the original mind. However, though the language is that employed in a dream state, the intention behind it is to give instruction in the waking state of the original mind. This is the aim of both the text of the Lotus Sutra itself and of the commentaries on it. If one does not clearly understand this, one will invariably misunderstand the wording of both the sutra and its commentaries."
-Nichiren, The Unanimous Declaration of the Buddhas
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Seishin
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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Seishin » Thu May 11, 2017 5:00 pm

From my own muddled thoughts on my website;

"there are ’10 Worlds’ within the 10 Worlds (10×10 = 100). Within each of these there are the ‘10 Factors of life’ that are experienced within the ‘3 Realms of Existence’ (10×3 = 30). Now multiply 100×30 = 3000 worlds. What I get asked quite often, is why did Chih-i use these particular realms and not others, or why 3000 and not 300,000 etc? Worrying over the exact number or components misses the point of this teaching. The importance of this is that all of these various realms are not separate, but interconnected and interrelated within any given moment." https://tendaiuk.com/2016/05/05/ichinen-sanzen/

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 11, 2017 5:31 pm

In case someone wants to read Zhiyi's explanation in English translation, here is a relevant excerpt from Swanson's translation of the Great Cessation and Contemplation, Moho Zhikuan/Mohezhikuan/MakaShikan.

http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/201 ... 3_2015.pdf

From p. 691 on.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun May 21, 2017 5:05 pm

If it helps to "de-spatialize" ichinen sanzen, "worlds" or "realms" do not have to be conceived of as physical or pseudo-physical places. These "realms" are also "elements", qualities, aspects, "dhátu" (in Sanskrit).
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by rory » Wed May 24, 2017 1:04 am

Let's make this understandable: how many realms there are is unimportant.
Question: what is important then about ichinen sanzen?
Answer: World/realms penetrate one another.
Ques: So?
Answ: this means that within you is the Buddha realm! And the hell realm.
Ques: and, what does this matter?
Answ: it means according to great Zhiyi (Chih-I) that just as the Buddha realm is in you, so it is in every single thing.
Ques: and this means....
Answ: it means that Tendai stands for - great equality as we are all capable of being Buddhas. So humans, sages, asuras, animals, bodhisattvas etc we're all equal.
Ques: can you give me an example?
Answ: sure. Remember the story of the Dragon King's Daughter in the Lotus Sutra.
Ques; Sure she became a buddha.But first she had to turn into a human, a male...
Answer: really?
Ques: yes, it says in the Pure land and other places you have to be born a human, and a male before you can become a Buddha. Isn't this so
Answer: No, not according to Tiantai/Tendai philosophy, since all the worlds/realms interpenetrate, the buddha- nature, the buddha realm is within every living thing (even non-sentient things) so they are all capable of becoming Buddhas in their form. Zhiyi says so. The Dragon girl was an animal, but became a Buddha.
[quote]Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58[/quote

This is the important meaning of Ichinen-sanzen, of Tendai Two Truths: meaning all things are empty, all things are provisionally real; and both are true at the same time.
This is the great Tendai teaching of Great Equality.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by rory » Thu May 25, 2017 9:59 pm

oops sorry, remove (and non-sentient things) from above...that's another discussion.
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: ichinen sanzen - 100 worlds?

Post by Invokingvajras » Fri May 26, 2017 1:53 am

Rory's quote got me thinking. It actually makes a lot of sense when you begin to get a grasp of the qualities associated with each realm, such as figures, feelings, and narratives. Each life time is like a drama unfolding, with a constant mix of pleasurable and painful experiences, love won and love lost, going from wealthy to poor, satiation to hunger, ecstasy and happiness to agony and deep depression.

The more one becomes aware of these experiences, the more relatable the realms become. Myths begin to make sense, as ideas, archetypes and examples of real people. One would hope that where associations are formed, empathy and compassion can become normative (see brahmavihāra). And on and on until Buddhahood.

Unless we were still talking about math.
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