Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 am
Of course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:

佛告大辯菩薩:「多寶如來本亦自誓:『我之塔寺所至方面,聽此經典,設諸如來及四部眾,欲覩吾身,隨其十方之所欲願,皆當得見,咸共供養於此化像。』大辯!欲知我身,亦當感是十方諸佛,一切世界所化如來,講說法者皆令詣此。」

It appears to identify the speaker of the Lotus Sūtra directly as 法者, dharmakāya, but I'm still looking at it.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:29 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 am
Of course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:

佛告大辯菩薩:「多寶如來本亦自誓:『我之塔寺所至方面,聽此經典,設諸如來及四部眾,欲覩吾身,隨其十方之所欲願,皆當得見,咸共供養於此化像。』大辯!欲知我身,亦當感是十方諸佛,一切世界所化如來,講說法者皆令詣此。」

It appears to identify the speaker of the Lotus Sūtra directly as 法者, dharmakāya, but I'm still looking at it.
I can no longer edit the above post, but, save to say, I was way off.

The relevant section from Ven Dharmarakṣa is here

彼時於此忍界所有功勳善德,殊雅威神自然而現,七寶諸樹周匝而生,其地悉變為紺琉璃,以紫磨金而為長繩,連綿莊飾八交路道,其地平正,除諸郡國縣邑村落、大海江河川流泉源,皆不復現,但見自然諸天香鑪燒眾名香,普雨天華。於此佛土,應時移徙諸天人民在他佛國。時諸眾會現在七寶諸交露帳,諸交露帳莊嚴殊妙,不可稱量遍此佛土。時彼十方一切諸佛,各有侍者,亦復皆來詣此忍界,各各至於眾寶樹下。此諸寶樹高二萬二千里,枝葉華實各各茂盛,斯寶樹下有師子床,高二萬里,皆以奇寶眾珍為座。如來座上,如是比像,於此三千大千世界,但見諸佛靡不周遍,非是釋迦文如來、至真、等正覺之所變現也,各從十方諸佛剎土而來到此,顯示大道無極之德。

爾時世尊釋迦文尼,變諸如來所化形像,在於八方各二萬億所有國土,皆無地獄、餓鬼、畜生,移徙諸天及阿須倫,在於他方諸佛世界。令二萬億諸佛國土地紺琉璃,皆以七寶變成樹木,其諸寶樹高二萬二千里,枝葉華實各各茂盛,諸師子座高二萬里,此諸佛土而皆平正,無有河海眾流泉源,亦無諸山,目隣、大目隣、須彌山王、鐵圍、大鐵圍,一一佛土其地平等,七寶合成各各莊嚴,諸寶交露快樂難量,遍布諸華燒眾名香。諸寶樹下各有如來坐師子床。如是比類,復更別有二萬世界能仁如來,各為諸方而特莊嚴,顯現清淨,皆為諸佛作其處所,此諸佛土,亦無地獄、餓鬼、畜生,諸龍、鬼神及阿須倫,亦復移徙諸天人民在他佛土。此諸佛土地紺琉璃,以紫磨金而為寶繩,連綿諸樹八重交道。又彼諸樹高大妙好亦復如前,師子之床莊嚴交飾。其地平正,無有山河江海之事,香華眾寶珍琦交露,垂明月珠亦復如前,行來進止道徑由路等無差特。

爾時釋迦文佛所化如來,在於東方恒沙等剎班宣道教,皆復來至,十方世界各三千億諸佛正覺,皆來詣此,如來悉坐於師子寶床,各取寶華授諸侍者:「諸族姓子,汝等往詣耆闍崛山能仁佛所,致吾名字敬問無量,聖體康強力勢如常,所遊安耶?以此眾華,供散彼佛及諸菩薩眾弟子上,宣我所言,多所開化。」


It is much longer and much more detailed than Ven Kumārajīva's. The Chinese is also a bit older (~200AD vs 400s AD like most older Chinese Buddhavacana in general, like the Chinese EBTs for instance) and a lot harder to understand, for me at least. So finding a parallel for 分身 is a bit of a task. Hopefully someone here who is more qualified than I will take an interest in this thread, as at this point, I am a bit out of my depth.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:29 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:35 pm
Queequeg wrote:The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha.
I found something similar:
tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ


But my Sanskrit is sufficiently poor that I'm not sure I'm even looking at the correct section. "Ekaghana" looks, though, like it could be "gather" or "come into one".
This is not quite accurate, the above, I mean. Tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ may well mean something like "the hidden ātmabhāva of the Tathāgata becomes solid" but I am not altogether sure.

The part dealing with emanations is here:

yadā punaste buddhā bhagavanto mamātmabhāvavigrahamuddhāṭya darśayitukāmā bhaveyuścatasṛṇāṃ parṣadām, atha taistathāgatairdaśasu dikṣvanyonyeṣu buddhakṣetreṣu ya ātmabhāvanirmitāstathāgatavigrahā anyānyanāmadheyāḥ, teṣu teṣu buddhakṣetreṣu sattvānāṃ dharmaṃ deśayanti, tān sarvān saṃnipātya tairātmabhāvanirmitaistathāgatavigrahaiḥ sārdhaṃ paścādayaṃ mamātmabhāvavigrahastūpaḥ samuddhāṭya upadarśayitavyaścatasṛṇāṃ parṣadām|
tanmayāpi mahāpratibhāna bahavastathāgatavigrahā nirmitāḥ, ye daśasu dikṣvanyonyeṣu buddhakṣetreṣu lokadhātusahasreṣu sattvānāṃ dharmaṃ deśayanti|
te sarve khalvihānayitavyā bhaviṣyanti||
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:12 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:29 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 am
Of course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:

佛告大辯菩薩:「多寶如來本亦自誓:『我之塔寺所至方面,聽此經典,設諸如來及四部眾,欲覩吾身,隨其十方之所欲願,皆當得見,咸共供養於此化像。』大辯!欲知我身,亦當感是十方諸佛,一切世界所化如來,講說法者皆令詣此。」

It appears to identify the speaker of the Lotus Sūtra directly as 法者, dharmakāya, but I'm still looking at it.
I can no longer edit the above post, but, save to say, I was way off.

The relevant section from Ven Dharmarakṣa is here

彼時於此忍界所有功勳善德,殊雅威神自然而現,七寶諸樹周匝而生,其地悉變為紺琉璃,以紫磨金而為長繩,連綿莊飾八交路道,其地平正,除諸郡國縣邑村落、大海江河川流泉源,皆不復現,但見自然諸天香鑪燒眾名香,普雨天華。於此佛土,應時移徙諸天人民在他佛國。時諸眾會現在七寶諸交露帳,諸交露帳莊嚴殊妙,不可稱量遍此佛土。時彼十方一切諸佛,各有侍者,亦復皆來詣此忍界,各各至於眾寶樹下。此諸寶樹高二萬二千里,枝葉華實各各茂盛,斯寶樹下有師子床,高二萬里,皆以奇寶眾珍為座。如來座上,如是比像,於此三千大千世界,但見諸佛靡不周遍,非是釋迦文如來、至真、等正覺之所變現也,各從十方諸佛剎土而來到此,顯示大道無極之德。

爾時世尊釋迦文尼,變諸如來所化形像,在於八方各二萬億所有國土,皆無地獄、餓鬼、畜生,移徙諸天及阿須倫,在於他方諸佛世界。令二萬億諸佛國土地紺琉璃,皆以七寶變成樹木,其諸寶樹高二萬二千里,枝葉華實各各茂盛,諸師子座高二萬里,此諸佛土而皆平正,無有河海眾流泉源,亦無諸山,目隣、大目隣、須彌山王、鐵圍、大鐵圍,一一佛土其地平等,七寶合成各各莊嚴,諸寶交露快樂難量,遍布諸華燒眾名香。諸寶樹下各有如來坐師子床。如是比類,復更別有二萬世界能仁如來,各為諸方而特莊嚴,顯現清淨,皆為諸佛作其處所,此諸佛土,亦無地獄、餓鬼、畜生,諸龍、鬼神及阿須倫,亦復移徙諸天人民在他佛土。此諸佛土地紺琉璃,以紫磨金而為寶繩,連綿諸樹八重交道。又彼諸樹高大妙好亦復如前,師子之床莊嚴交飾。其地平正,無有山河江海之事,香華眾寶珍琦交露,垂明月珠亦復如前,行來進止道徑由路等無差特。

爾時釋迦文佛所化如來,在於東方恒沙等剎班宣道教,皆復來至,十方世界各三千億諸佛正覺,皆來詣此,如來悉坐於師子寶床,各取寶華授諸侍者:「諸族姓子,汝等往詣耆闍崛山能仁佛所,致吾名字敬問無量,聖體康強力勢如常,所遊安耶?以此眾華,供散彼佛及諸菩薩眾弟子上,宣我所言,多所開化。」


It is much longer and much more detailed than Ven Kumārajīva's. The Chinese is also a bit older (~200AD vs 400s AD like most older Chinese Buddhavacana in general, like the Chinese EBTs for instance) and a lot harder to understand, for me at least. So finding a parallel for 分身 is a bit of a task. Hopefully someone here who is more qualified than I will take an interest in this thread, as at this point, I am a bit out of my depth.
Look at the glossary I linked above. The correspondence between Kumarajiva and Dharmarksa is already done. The same author did a glossary, same methodology, for Dharmarksa. The heavy lifting is done...
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:12 am
Look at the glossary I linked above. The correspondence between Kumarajiva and Dharmarksa is already done. The same author did a glossary, same methodology, for Dharmarksa. The heavy lifting is done...
But I can't 'command+F' it.... its so long.... I'm simply too 'millennial', I can't handle it. System overload.

...in all seriousness though I'll look through it eventually, its just a bit wieldly to learn how to navigate the document.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Kids these days... You know, we used to have to answer the phone to find out who was calling...
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world!"
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:13 pm
Kids these days... You know, we used to have to answer the phone to find out who was calling...
You guys used to answer your phones? :jawdrop:
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:49 pm

I still think the narrative of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra disrupts any narrative predicated in the same text of Buddha Shakyamuni as an "eternal Buddha."

To my mind, this is another way in which the Lotus Sutra is of a piece with Indian Mahayana, which is unremarkable because it is an Indian Mahayana text.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by narhwal90 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 pm

I have misplaced the reference, but IIRC the interplay between Sakyamuni and Prabhutaratna is foundational to the development of the eternal vs distant past vs present manifestation, related to the guest/host roles.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 pm
I have misplaced the reference, but IIRC the interplay between Sakyamuni and Prabhutaratna is foundational to the development of the eternal vs distant past vs present manifestation, related to the guest/host roles.
This discussion is beginning to sound like film school.
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:24 pm

rory wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm

So in Tiantai philosophy there is no before time or after time, it is not linear. This is the Truth of the Middle.

I hope I have explained this well as it is extremely important and the essence of Tiantai.
gassho
Rory
Stephen Hawkins on time says it is a circle.
simply put , it bends in on itself to form a circle.
His famous words"i understand that i can remember yesterday but i don;t know why i can't remember tomorrow."
is this similar.

also i am turning to this section for answers to some of my questions.
it seems this is the source school for Nichiren DaiShonin.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by DGA » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:37 am

rory wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:35 am

You don't seem to understand the Lotus Sutra or Tiantai/Tendai philosophy at all: time is not linear. This is how Shakyamuni Buddha can be teaching on Sacred Vulture Peak at the same time people think he passed into Nirvana.
Ultimately, time is not linear (if there is such a thing as time). But sentient beings do not experience it that way. This is why, among other things, texts like the Lotus Sutra have concurrent chapters, parables have beginnings and ends, jokes have set-ups and punchlines...

This is why different Buddhas appear to appear at different times and different places to different beings. Ultimately this is incoherent but to sentient beings, it is the only reality.

Prove me wrong.

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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by DGA » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:40 am

rory wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm
All right now I have the time and text to give a fuller explanation:
We are dealing with Flower Garland (Avatamsaka, Hua-yen, Kegon) philosophy and Tiantai (Tendai) philosophy.
No, the topic of this discussion is "Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna." Not Hua Yen thought, nor the Avatamsaka Sutra. Will your post address the topic of the appearance of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra? I'm curious to find out.
Hua-yen thought sees all phenomena as expressions of an originally pure and undifferentiated one mind
Stone Original Enlightenment p.7

So Avatamsaka says there is One Mind and then phenomena follow

A favourite example is the ocean (the One Mind) and the wave (phenomena) which arises and then recedes back into the ocean.

Tiantai denies that everything arises from the One MInd, rather, Chih-I (Zhiyi, Chigi) the founder of the Tiantai schools states
"one may say neither that the one mind is prior and all dharmas posterior nor that all dharmas are prior and the mind posterior...All one can say is that the mind is all dharmas and all dharmas are the mind. Therefore the relationship is neither vertical nor horizontal, neither the same nor different." p. 8.
Tiantai- Tendai philosophy posits the Truth of the Middle or as it is called the Two Truths: All phenomena are empty, all phenomena are provisionally real, both these these truths exist at the same time.
an easy example is : I have a female human body and a buddhanature that is no different from Shakyamuni or Chih-I. Both are true simultaneously.

Additionally both Flower Garden and the Tendai school (which due to its incorporation of esoteric practices) revere Vairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai)
Vairocana Buddha is the Buddha as Dharma body, that is the truth without beginning or end that is inherent in all things. All other Buddhas are seen as manifestations of this cosmic Buddha; so indeed is the universe itself... p.19
So in Tiantai philosophy there is no before time or after time, it is not linear. This is the Truth of the Middle.
Guess not.

But since you raised the topic, is it your position that all Buddhas are manifestations of the dharmakaya, rather than as emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha, as claimed by some at DW?

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Minobu
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:25 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:40 am

But since you raised the topic, is it your position that all Buddhas are manifestations of the dharmakaya, rather than as emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha, as claimed by some at DW?
well if i am already a Buddha , and at the same time a guy on the path , and at the same time and probably an infinite other karmic manifestations of this me on the path...i guess my Sambhogakaya body is a manifestation of dharmakaya .
somewhere there is a Nirmanakaya body and the Dharmakaya Body is just the same as all other Buddhas and everyone else on DW and beyond .

I have now come to terms that because we are taught by Sakyamuni Buddha we tend to go through a time period of adjustment to what He and We really are. so when we speak of emanations of Sakyamuni Buddha ....hmmmm now having a hard time fitting that into the equation so i shall leave it there....

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rory
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna

Post by rory » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:55 pm

DGA:
No, the topic of this discussion is "Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna." Not Hua Yen thought, nor the Avatamsaka Sutra. Will your post address the topic of the appearance of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra? I'm curious to find out.
I did. Since time isn't linear both Buddhas can appear. The great Master of the Lotus Sutra School, Chih-I [Zhiyi, Chigi] read the sutra this way and I follow him!

You are free to posit something else, what is your position and academic support?

As a follower of Tendai, naturally I follow this:
Vairocana Buddha is the Buddha as Dharma body, that is the truth without beginning or end that is inherent in all things. All other Buddhas are seen as manifestations of this cosmic Buddha; so indeed is the universe itself
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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