Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha Prabhutaratna (Abundant Treasure) appears as a result of his vow to be present whenever the Lotus Sutra is taught. This indicates that the Lotus Sutra one is hearing recited, or one is reading, is not the first Lotus Sutra--that this sutra has been taught by Buddhas past, and is regularly taught (one can readily imagine Buddha Prabhutaratna bursting onto the scene of countless Lotus Sutras...)
Which means that there are Buddhas that predate Shakyamuni's teaching of this Sutra. Prabhutaratna's existence demonstrates that Shakyamuni is not the first Buddha to have attained Buddhahood.
From your perspective:
Is Prabhutaratna the coequal of Shakyamuni Buddha?
Does his Buddhahood predate Shakyamuni's, or is he somehow an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?
Which means that there are Buddhas that predate Shakyamuni's teaching of this Sutra. Prabhutaratna's existence demonstrates that Shakyamuni is not the first Buddha to have attained Buddhahood.
From your perspective:
Is Prabhutaratna the coequal of Shakyamuni Buddha?
Does his Buddhahood predate Shakyamuni's, or is he somehow an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
DGA wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:06 pm In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha Prabhutaratna (Abundant Treasure) appears as a result of his vow to be present whenever the Lotus Sutra is taught. This indicates that the Lotus Sutra one is hearing recited, or one is reading, is not the first Lotus Sutra--that this sutra has been taught by Buddhas past, and is regularly taught (one can readily imagine Buddha Prabhutaratna bursting onto the scene of countless Lotus Sutras...)
Which means that there are Buddhas that predate Shakyamuni's teaching of this Sutra. Prabhutaratna's existence demonstrates that Shakyamuni is not the first Buddha to have attained Buddhahood.
From your perspective:
Is Prabhutaratna the coequal of Shakyamuni Buddha?
Does his Buddhahood predate Shakyamuni's, or is he somehow an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha?
You don't seem to understand the Lotus Sutra or Tiantai/Tendai philosophy at all: time is not linear. This is how Shakyamuni Buddha can be teaching on Sacred Vulture Peak at the same time people think he passed into Nirvana.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PrabhutaratnaNikkyō Niwano states Prabhūtaratna's stupa symbolizes the buddha-nature which all people possess, while the springing-up of the stupa from the earth is said to imply the discovery of one's own buddha-nature.[14]
According to Robert Buswell, "Prabhūtaratna (Many Treasures) invites Shakyamuni to sit beside him inside his bejeweled stūpa, thus validating the teachings Shakyamuni delivered in the scripture."[15] Thich Nhat Hanh states that Prabhūtaratna symbolizes "the ultimate Buddha" and Shakyamuni "the historical Buddha"; the two Buddhas sitting together signifies the non-duality of the ultimate and the historical, that at a given moment in the real world, one can touch the ultimate.[16]
According to Nichiren, in their interaction Shakyamuni and Many Treasures agreed to the perpetuation of the Law throughout the Latter Day.[17]
Side by Side:
Notes on the Twin Buddhas of the Lotus Sutra in the Stone Carver's Art
https://rk-world.org/dharmaworld/dw_201 ... -side.aspx
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
All right now I have the time and text to give a fuller explanation:
We are dealing with Flower Garland (Avatamsaka, Hua-yen, Kegon) philosophy and Tiantai (Tendai) philosophy.
So Avatamsaka says there is One Mind and then phenomena follow
A favourite example is the ocean (the One Mind) and the wave (phenomena) which arises and then recedes back into the ocean.
Tiantai denies that everything arises from the One MInd, rather, Chih-I (Zhiyi, Chigi) the founder of the Tiantai schools states
an easy example is : I have a female human body and a buddhanature that is no different from Shakyamuni or Chih-I. Both are true simultaneously.
Additionally both Flower Garden and the Tendai school (which due to its incorporation of esoteric practices) revere Vairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai)
I hope I have explained this well as it is extremely important and the essence of Tiantai.
gassho
Rory
We are dealing with Flower Garland (Avatamsaka, Hua-yen, Kegon) philosophy and Tiantai (Tendai) philosophy.
Stone Original Enlightenment p.7Hua-yen thought sees all phenomena as expressions of an originally pure and undifferentiated one mind
So Avatamsaka says there is One Mind and then phenomena follow
A favourite example is the ocean (the One Mind) and the wave (phenomena) which arises and then recedes back into the ocean.
Tiantai denies that everything arises from the One MInd, rather, Chih-I (Zhiyi, Chigi) the founder of the Tiantai schools states
Tiantai- Tendai philosophy posits the Truth of the Middle or as it is called the Two Truths: All phenomena are empty, all phenomena are provisionally real, both these these truths exist at the same time."one may say neither that the one mind is prior and all dharmas posterior nor that all dharmas are prior and the mind posterior...All one can say is that the mind is all dharmas and all dharmas are the mind. Therefore the relationship is neither vertical nor horizontal, neither the same nor different." p. 8.
an easy example is : I have a female human body and a buddhanature that is no different from Shakyamuni or Chih-I. Both are true simultaneously.
Additionally both Flower Garden and the Tendai school (which due to its incorporation of esoteric practices) revere Vairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai)
So in Tiantai philosophy there is no before time or after time, it is not linear. This is the Truth of the Middle.Vairocana Buddha is the Buddha as Dharma body, that is the truth without beginning or end that is inherent in all things. All other Buddhas are seen as manifestations of this cosmic Buddha; so indeed is the universe itself... p.19
I hope I have explained this well as it is extremely important and the essence of Tiantai.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Not a direct response, but this may clarify a little.
The Bhadrakalpika Sutra lists all the buddhas to come in this Bhadra Kalpa. Buddha is the one asked and he gives the list and some details. All these buddhas arise from presently existing different Mahasattvas & Bodhisattvas.
Here is one example from the 1000 or so listed. All these attributes vary from buddha to buddha. Their Bodhi or wisdom is probably the same, but the karma of beings, era, realm and His own merit may explain the variations.
The Bhadrakalpika Sutra lists all the buddhas to come in this Bhadra Kalpa. Buddha is the one asked and he gives the list and some details. All these buddhas arise from presently existing different Mahasattvas & Bodhisattvas.
Here is one example from the 1000 or so listed. All these attributes vary from buddha to buddha. Their Bodhi or wisdom is probably the same, but the karma of beings, era, realm and His own merit may explain the variations.
The Tathagata Mahaprabha will have as birthplace the city
called Joyful Pleasure. He will be of princely descent; and his
light will extend for forty yojanas. His father will be known as
Bajir; his mother will be known as Gift of Conquerors. His son
will be called Moon Umbrella; his principal attendant will be
known as Wisdom of Tranquility. The follower foremost in
wisdom will be known as Heart of Sentient Beings; the follower
foremost in miraculous abilities will be known as Great
Gentleness. In his first assembly will be 970 million disciples; in
his second assembly will be 950 million; and in the third
assembly will be 930 million. His life will span one thousand
years; and the holy Dharma will remain a further ninety
thousand years. His relics will be extensive.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
This has nothing to do with the Lotus Sutra and Tiantai philosophy, both you and DGA take a literalist reading of the Sutra which neither Chih-I nor any educated monk, whichever philosophical school he belonged to would do.Nicholas Weeks: The Bhadrakalpika Sutra ....
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
For myself, not a literalist reading exclusively, but Faith and Devotion do enrich my studies.rory wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:53 amThis has nothing to do with the Lotus Sutra and Tiantai philosophy, both you and DGA take a literalist reading of the Sutra which neither Chih-I nor any educated monk, whichever philosophical school he belonged to would do.Nicholas Weeks: The Bhadrakalpika Sutra ....
gassho
Rory
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
When it comes to the identities of Buddhas, I've basically concluded its something like trying to talk about what happens beyond the event horizon of a black hole.
Prabhutaratna is described in the Lotus as follows (from the BDK translation):
"Magically created forms" = 分身
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism entry for 分身 reads -
There the definition is given, "bodies which emanate from a buddha etc., bodies which a buddha etc. magically creates, magically created forms
The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha. I believe these terms are used to refer to various iterations of the Buddha, including images of the Buddha. I hope someone with more knowledge on these terms will chime in.
In another place in the Sutra,
則爲已見我
亦見多寶佛
及諸分身者
又見我今日
教化諸菩薩
Here the Sanskrit is nayaka. The meaning I get here is of "clever".
More or less, what I'm sensing is describing these "emanations" as the Buddhas that appear in response to the various conditions throughout the universe.
One thing I would point out, when Shakyamuni assembles the emanations, no one is surprised. This is in contrast to the surprise of the Assembly at the emergence of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth who appear in Chapter 15.
***
I've heard Prabhutaratna compared to Dharmakaya and identified with Mahavairocana of the Womb World, and Shakyamuni identified with Mahavairocana of the Diamond World - ie. the expedients through which Buddha appears to and leads beings.
I think this comes from the Tendai esoteric traditions - Maybe Jikai will see this and he can offer some insight on this?
***
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
This is where I give up.
Prabhutaratna is described in the Lotus as follows (from the BDK translation):
The Sutra continues:“The Tathāgata is in this jeweled stupa. In the remote past, immeasurable, incalculable thousands of myriads of koṭis of worlds away in the east there was a land called Ratnaviśuddha. In that land there was a buddha called Prabhūtaratna. When this buddha was practicing the bodhisattva path in his previous lives he made a great vow, saying:
If I become a buddha, after my parinirvāṇa if the Lotus Sutra is being taught anywhere in all the lands of the ten directions, my stupa shall appear there so that this sutra may be heard, and in order that I may bear testimony to it and praise it with the word “Splendid!”
“After the Buddha had perfected the path and immediately before his parinirvāṇa, he addressed the monks among the great assembly of devas and humans, saying: After my parinirvāṇa anyone who wishes to pay me homage should build a great stupa!
“If there is anyone teaching the Lotus Sutra anywhere in the worlds of the ten directions, this buddha makes a jeweled stupa emerge out of the ground in that place through his transcendent powers and the power of his vow. He is in the stupa giving praise with the words, ‘Splendid, splendid!’
Shakyamuni then proceeds to gather his "magically created forms".“O Mahāpratibhāna! The Tathāgata Prabhūtaratna has now emerged from the earth, within his stupa, so that he may hear the Lotus Sutra and give praise with the words, ‘Splendid, splendid!’”
At that time Bodhisattva Mahāpratibhāna spoke to the Buddha through the Tathāgata’s transcendent powers, saying: “O Bhagavat! We all want to see this buddha’s form.”
The Buddha answered Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Mahāprati bhāna, saying:
“This Buddha Prabhūtaratna made a great vow, saying: Whenever my jeweled stupa appears in the presence of a buddha in order to hear the Lotus Sutra, if that buddha wants to show my form to the fourfold assembly he should gather into one place all his magically created forms that are teaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions. After that my form will appear.
“O Mahāpratibhāna! I shall now gather all my magically created forms who are teaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions.”
"Magically created forms" = 分身
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism entry for 分身 reads -
I consulted, "A Glossary of Kumarajiva's Translation of the Lotus Sutra" compiled by Karashima Seishi, who I believe is a professor at Soka University in Japan. This is a handy little resource that lists terms from Kumarajiva's translation of the Lotus Sutra and gives the alternate translations of those terms in other translations of the LS (including Dharmaraksa's translation) as well as the corresponding Sanskrit as found in the Sanskrit version that Kern translated.Basic Meaning: dividing the body
Senses:
Referring to the transformation bodies of the Buddha 化身 [nirmanakaya], with which he teaches and saves living beings. A Buddhaʼs power to reproduce himself ad infinitum and anywhere.
There the definition is given, "bodies which emanate from a buddha etc., bodies which a buddha etc. magically creates, magically created forms
若我寶塔。爲聽法華經故出於諸佛前時。其有欲以我身示四衆者。彼佛分身諸佛。在於十方世界説法。盡還集一處。T0262_,09: 0032c23_04 - 0032c26_02Whenever my jeweled stupa appears in the presence of a buddha in order to hear the Lotus Sutra, if that buddha wants to show my form to the fourfold assembly he should gather into one place all his magically created forms that are teaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions. After that my form will appear.
The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha. I believe these terms are used to refer to various iterations of the Buddha, including images of the Buddha. I hope someone with more knowledge on these terms will chime in.
In another place in the Sutra,
能持是經者Those who preserve this sutra
Have already seen me, The Buddha Prabhūtaratna,
And the various magically created forms;
And today they see all the bodhisattvas
I have led and inspired up until now.
則爲已見我
亦見多寶佛
及諸分身者
又見我今日
教化諸菩薩
Here the Sanskrit is nayaka. The meaning I get here is of "clever".
More or less, what I'm sensing is describing these "emanations" as the Buddhas that appear in response to the various conditions throughout the universe.
One thing I would point out, when Shakyamuni assembles the emanations, no one is surprised. This is in contrast to the surprise of the Assembly at the emergence of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth who appear in Chapter 15.
***
I've heard Prabhutaratna compared to Dharmakaya and identified with Mahavairocana of the Womb World, and Shakyamuni identified with Mahavairocana of the Diamond World - ie. the expedients through which Buddha appears to and leads beings.
I think this comes from the Tendai esoteric traditions - Maybe Jikai will see this and he can offer some insight on this?
***
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
This is where I give up.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
I found something similar:Queequeg wrote:The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha.
tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ
But my Sanskrit is sufficiently poor that I'm not sure I'm even looking at the correct section. "Ekaghana" looks, though, like it could be "gather" or "come into one".
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
The dharmakāya cannot directly appear to beings at all. Only buddhas can see the dharmakāya. However, the dharmakāya manifests the rūpakāya to beings, and those rūpakāyas appear in various forms suited to the inclinations of various sentient beings in the six realms (hells through devas).Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:44 pm
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Yup. I defer to that explanation. That is what I meant - Dharmakaya appears as rupakaya, and only as rupakaya to beings. There is no other way.Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:14 pmThe dharmakāya cannot directly appear to beings at all. Only buddhas can see the dharmakāya. However, the dharmakāya manifests the rūpakāya to beings, and those rūpakāyas appear in various forms suited to the inclinations of various sentient beings in the six realms (hells through devas).Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:44 pm
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Perhaps this is some 'folksy Buddhism', but I swear that I had heard it explained that, since the dharmakāya does not 'appear', we 'see' saṃbhogakāya when 'looking at' dharmakāya, assuming attainment.Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:14 pmThe dharmakāya cannot directly appear to beings at all. Only buddhas can see the dharmakāya. However, the dharmakāya manifests the rūpakāya to beings, and those rūpakāyas appear in various forms suited to the inclinations of various sentient beings in the six realms (hells through devas).Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:44 pm
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
Is this right at all?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:08 pmPerhaps this is some 'folksy Buddhism', but I swear that I had heard it explained that, since the dharmakāya does not 'appear', we 'see' saṃbhogakāya when 'looking at' dharmakāya, assuming attainment.Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:14 pmThe dharmakāya cannot directly appear to beings at all. Only buddhas can see the dharmakāya. However, the dharmakāya manifests the rūpakāya to beings, and those rūpakāyas appear in various forms suited to the inclinations of various sentient beings in the six realms (hells through devas).Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:44 pm
Personally, I think Prabhutaratna, Shakyamuni, and the emanation Buddhas are all mutually identified. We can distinguish them because they embody different upaya, but fundamentally, they are iterations of Dharmakaya in response to conditions, and that Dharmakaya can only appear to beings in response to their conditions. To try and identify them as distinct entities is frustrating because Buddhas are beyond those sorts of distinctions...
Is this right at all?
Not unless you are an eighth stage bodhisattva on up. Below that, beings can only perceived a nirmanakāya. Why? Because only nirmanakāyas appear in the three realms. The sambhogakāya cannot appear in the desire realm, but it can appear to the mind of bodhisattva in the pure stages in a samadhi on Akanishtha, for example.
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
I think that this is the main difference between what is called "Lotus Buddhism" here and other Buddhisms. Lotus Buddhism seems to dismiss this: the notion of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher".
I suppose that is the area of the LS where the divide between LS-venerating schools (in the sense of East Asian sūtra-venerating schools) and the Indo-Tibetan tradition lies. The Indo-Tibetan tradition, which I am taking you as a representative of, sees this dismissal of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher" and concludes the sūtra to be provisional, that is, specifically provisional in that it is designed to stir up faith and devotion with 'technically untrue' radical statements, such as the statement that 'anyone' (regardless of bhūmi), via only "harbour[ing] thoughts of yearning and in their minds thirst to gaze" at the Buddha while "becom[ing] truly faithful, honest and upright, gentle in intent, single-mindedly desiring to see the Buddha, not hesitating even if it costs them their lives" can 'see/experience' the saṃbhogakāya transmitting/expounding saddharma.
Is this way off track, would you say, or is this a fair summation of the perspective of the Indo-Tibetan tradition with regards to the provisionality of the LS?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
That is an interesting point.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:22 pmI think that this is the main difference between what is called "Lotus Buddhism" here and other Buddhisms. Lotus Buddhism seems to dismiss this: the notion of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher".
I suppose that is the area of the LS where the divide between LS-venerating schools (in the sense of East Asian sūtra-venerating schools) and the Indo-Tibetan tradition lies. The Indo-Tibetan tradition, which I am taking you as a representative of, sees this dismissal of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher" and concludes the sūtra to be provisional, that is, specifically provisional in that it is designed to stir up faith and devotion with 'technically untrue' radical statements, such as the statement that 'anyone' (regardless of bhūmi), via only "harbour[ing] thoughts of yearning and in their minds thirst to gaze" at the Buddha while "becom[ing] truly faithful, honest and upright, gentle in intent, single-mindedly desiring to see the Buddha, not hesitating even if it costs them their lives" can 'see/experience' the saṃbhogakāya transmitting/expounding saddharma.
Is this way off track, would you say, or is this a fair summation of the perspective of the Indo-Tibetan tradition with regards to the provisionality of the LS?
I think that's why its still considered Shakyamuni (Nirmanakaya) who delivers the sermon at the heart of the LS, why this teaching is considered to be taught to all beings, not just advanced Bodhisattvas.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Indeed, as soon as "only X bhūmi or higher" came into play regarding the Pure Land of Mahāvairocana (in the latest "Primordial Buddha" thread), I knew that there was some incompatibility or some 'distinct teaching' that was separating the perspectives outlined here.Queequeg wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:04 pmThat is an interesting point.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:22 pmI think that this is the main difference between what is called "Lotus Buddhism" here and other Buddhisms. Lotus Buddhism seems to dismiss this: the notion of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher".
I suppose that is the area of the LS where the divide between LS-venerating schools (in the sense of East Asian sūtra-venerating schools) and the Indo-Tibetan tradition lies. The Indo-Tibetan tradition, which I am taking you as a representative of, sees this dismissal of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher" and concludes the sūtra to be provisional, that is, specifically provisional in that it is designed to stir up faith and devotion with 'technically untrue' radical statements, such as the statement that 'anyone' (regardless of bhūmi), via only "harbour[ing] thoughts of yearning and in their minds thirst to gaze" at the Buddha while "becom[ing] truly faithful, honest and upright, gentle in intent, single-mindedly desiring to see the Buddha, not hesitating even if it costs them their lives" can 'see/experience' the saṃbhogakāya transmitting/expounding saddharma.
Is this way off track, would you say, or is this a fair summation of the perspective of the Indo-Tibetan tradition with regards to the provisionality of the LS?
I think that's why its still considered Shakyamuni (Nirmanakaya) who delivers the sermon at the heart of the LS, why this teaching is considered to be taught to all beings, not just advanced Bodhisattvas.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
The entire point of Chih-I's Tiantai philosophy is the Truth of the Middle, meaning that the emptyness of phenomena and the provisional reality of phenomena exist simultaneously there is no linear time and thus the deep idea of interpenetration of all things: 3,000 worlds in one thought moment. So of course the notion of "no X until bhumi 8" is entirely done away with. It is profoundly radical and subversive!Coemgemu: I think that this is the main difference between what is called "Lotus Buddhism" here and other Buddhisms. Lotus Buddhism seems to dismiss this: the notion of "no X until bhūmi 8 or higher".
The Lotus Sutra illustrates this deconstruction of Yogacarya with its progressions in Ch12 Devadatta with the story of the Dragon King's daughter:
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus12.htmWisdom Accumulation Bodhisattva said, "I have seen the Thus Come One Shakyamuni practicing difficult ascetic practices throughout limitless aeons, accumulating merit and virtue as he sought Bodhi without ever resting. As I observe the three thousand great thousand worlds, there is no place, not even one the size of a mustard seed, where as a Bodhisattva he did not renounce his life for the sake of living beings. Only after that did he attain the Bodhi Way. I do not believe that this girl can accomplish proper enlightenment in the space of an instant.
Shariputra in the very same chapter tells the Dragon Girl:
The Dragon Girl replies:Only after one has passed through limitless aeons, diligently bearing suffering and accumulating one�s conduct, perfecting one�s cultivation of all Paramitas, can one then attain realization
and she does.The girl said, "With your spiritual powers, watch as I become a Buddha even more quickly than that!
This immediate leap to Enlightenment via the Tiantai reading of the Lotus Sutra is the intellectual basis of East Asian Buddhism, so much so that most don't even realize it, just accept it. It is only when we have close discussion with Tibetan Buddhists of such things, that we realize the big differences.
Read my signature again, these are the profound words of Chih-I, the Lotus Sutra is about profound equality; there is no difference between my cat's buddhanature and my own. Between my own and Chih-I, between my cat's buddhanature and Chih-I
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Speaking of these textual layers in general, is the Sanskrit here not a back-translation based on the Chinese?Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:35 pmI found something similar:Queequeg wrote:The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha.tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ
But my Sanskrit is sufficiently poor that I'm not sure I'm even looking at the correct section. "Ekaghana" looks, though, like it could be "gather" or "come into one".
Why is the Sanskrit seemingly so much more detailed and nuanced, with tathāgatasyātmabhāva instead of 分身, which, although may be understood to mean tathāgatasyātmabhāva, means actually something much more simple and less specific: separated/emanated body or bodies. Tathāgatasyātmabhāva, if it means what it seems to mean, actually refers specifically but not exclusively to a tathāgata & an ātma, two very precise Sanskrit terms that are utterly absent from the Chinese. It is detail that has been added to the Sanskrit recension, if this Sanskrit recension cited is indeed the later one I am thinking of. Where did it come from? Does it comes from a particular commentary on the sūtra?
This would also make sense if 分身 were an abbreviation for a longer phrase in Chinese, something that occurs occasionally in the language, but I have never seen substantiation for that.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
Not sure but I don't think so. The glossary gives the Sanskrit from the version Kern translated, which IIRC, is the version found in Kathmandu. It's a later version than the versions found in Afghanistan?, and all existent versions are later than the version Kumarajiva translated. For a detailed discussion of the existent versions of the LS see
https://books.google.com/books/about/Bu ... ead_button
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna
I took a look at the book, and then it got me looking at Ven Dharmarakṣa's recension. Its not in good shape either. I'm being a little bit blown away by how ragged some of the lines of textual transmission for this sūtra are! One expects this for older EBTs, but this is a Mahāyāna sūtra! There's no excuses!Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:40 pmNot sure but I don't think so. The glossary gives the Sanskrit from the version Kern translated, which IIRC, is the version found in Kathmandu. It's a later version than the versions found in Afghanistan?, and all existent versions are later than the version Kumarajiva translated. For a detailed discussion of the existent versions of the LS see
https://books.google.com/books/about/Bu ... ead_button
Of course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)