Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.

Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Yes
7
33%
No
14
67%
 
Total votes: 21

Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

Motova wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm Why would any Mahayana practitioner ignore Amitabha's Pure Land?
I don't think that Nichiren was telling people to ignore Sukhavati. His axe to grind was against Honen, the founder of the Jodo-shu sect (Honen acknowledges he founded a new school of Buddhism in his seminal Senchakushū), who he believed was leading people away from the Dharma with an undue emphasis on Nembutsu, reciting the name of Amitabha Buddha, Namo Amida Butsu.

A significant factor in his conviction about this was his belief that people in Japan had forgotten about Śākyamuni Buddha (of course they hadn't, but that is a different story), and thus he advocated for the elimination of Pure Land Buddism, which he considered a "one-sided teaching" as it was being practiced by Honen and his disciples.

NIchiren tied some of his polemics to his belief that the practice of Pure Land Buddhism has earlier caused the suppression of Buddhism by the Taoist Emperor Wuzong (814-846) during the Tang Dynasty in China, and later on, the death in 1221 of the cloistered Japanese emperor Go-toba after he led an unsuccessful rebellion against the Kamakura Shogunate and was exiled.

The interesting thing about this is that Go-toba actually banned Honen's Pure Land school, ordering the execution of some its adherents and the banishment of Honen. There was eventually a rapprochement, where Honen signed a pledge to reign in some of his more radical students. Despite all of this, clearly Nichiren held Honen's teaching and people response to it as being responsible for the death of Go-toba.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

markatex wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:43 pm
markatex wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:38 pm What prompted this question? The answer is no. There is no way the two are compatible.
What an amazing world we live in, where one form of Buddhism is incompatible with another. Truly a degenerate age.
Oh, give it a rest. Lots of forms of Buddhism are incompatible with each other. I like DGA, but I feel like he’s trolling with these questions.
Can you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
Motova
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Motova »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:17 pm
Motova wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm Why would any Mahayana practitioner ignore Amitabha's Pure Land?
I don't think that Nichiren was telling people to ignore Sukhavati. His axe to grind was against Honen, the founder of the Jodo-shu sect (Honen acknowledges he founded a new school of Buddhism in his seminal Senchakushū), who he believed was leading people away from the Dharma with an undue emphasis on Nembutsu, reciting the name of Amitabha Buddha, Namo Amida Butsu.

A significant factor in his conviction about this was his belief that people in Japan had forgotten about Śākyamuni Buddha (of course they hadn't, but that is a different story), and thus he advocated for the elimination of Pure Land Buddism, which he considered a "one-sided teaching" as it was being practiced by Honen and his disciples.

NIchiren tied some of his polemics to his belief that the practice of Pure Land Buddhism has earlier caused the suppression of Buddhism by the Taoist Emperor Wuzong (814-846) during the Tang Dynasty in China, and later on, the death in 1221 of the cloistered Japanese emperor Go-toba after he led an unsuccessful rebellion against the Kamakura Shogunate and was exiled.

The interesting thing about this is that Go-toba actually banned Honen's Pure Land school, ordering the execution of some its adherents and the banishment of Honen. There was eventually a rapprochement, where Honen signed a pledge to reign in some of his more radical students. Despite all of this, clearly Nichiren held Honen's teaching and people response to it as being responsible for the death of Go-toba.
Interesting, thank you for the information.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2948
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:18 pmCan you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
Nikaya buddhism of the pali suttas and mahayana...
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by DGA »

markatex wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:43 pm
markatex wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:38 pm What prompted this question? The answer is no. There is no way the two are compatible.
What an amazing world we live in, where one form of Buddhism is incompatible with another. Truly a degenerate age.
Oh, give it a rest. Lots of forms of Buddhism are incompatible with each other. I like DGA, but I feel like he’s trolling with these questions.
Here’s what prompted this question.

I was having a conversation with someone who proposed some kind of synthesis between pure land practices per Honen and Nichiren’s doctrines. This idea seemed confused and contradictory to me. Or... was it me that was confused? Am i missing something or misunderstanding?

To get some clarity and at the risk of exposing my own ignorance and foolishness, I went to the only place I know where I can get unvarnished answers from Nichiren and Pure Land people simultaneously. Here we are.

I’m sorry this thread feels otherwise but really the only one getting trolled is me.
User avatar
DewachenVagabond
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm
Location: Dewachen

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:18 pmCan you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
Nikaya buddhism of the pali suttas and mahayana...
That's not necessarily true. For one thing, historically Mahayana has been practiced within Theravada, and even today there are instances of Mahayana and Theravada coexisting, as discussed in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=27429
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by narhwal90 »

DGA wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:51 am
Here’s what prompted this question.

I was having a conversation with someone who proposed some kind of synthesis between pure land practices per Honen and Nichiren’s doctrines. This idea seemed confused and contradictory to me. Or... was it me that was confused? Am i missing something or misunderstanding?

To get some clarity and at the risk of exposing my own ignorance and foolishness, I went to the only place I know where I can get unvarnished answers from Nichiren and Pure Land people simultaneously. Here we are.

I’m sorry this thread feels otherwise but really the only one getting trolled is me.

I thought it an interesting question, have any Pure Land folks weighed in?
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by DGA »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:17 pm
Motova wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm Why would any Mahayana practitioner ignore Amitabha's Pure Land?
I don't think that Nichiren was telling people to ignore Sukhavati.
This is an interesting topic. I don't know if he did or if he did not.

I do know that many of the contemporary Nichiren Buddhists I have engaged with do not view an aspiration for rebirth in Sukhavati as a good way to use the current lifetime one has. (Am I off base here?)
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by DGA »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:18 pm
markatex wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:43 pm

What an amazing world we live in, where one form of Buddhism is incompatible with another. Truly a degenerate age.
Oh, give it a rest. Lots of forms of Buddhism are incompatible with each other. I like DGA, but I feel like he’s trolling with these questions.
Can you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
I think this depends on one's perspective and the views one holds. There are many contemporary Buddhists who would regard Dzogchen as incompatible with any Buddhist practice, because to their mind it ain't Buddhism.

Speaking only for myself, I think if you understand what is meant by ekayana, you can't help but rejoice in any Dharma practice anyone does, and any contradictions in doctrine can get resolved as you wind down the highway.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by DGA »

rory wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:49 amI think we're casting back our ideas of of the predominance of Amida's pure land onto the past. As before Honen: monks practiced to get to a variety of Pure Land and yes that was a real ongoing practice and Nichiren has the Pure Land of Tranquil Light. According to single practice Pure Land schools such as Jodo Shu and Jodo Shinshu there is only one important pure land (they wouldn't deny the existence of others) Kannon sama has her own Pure Land of Mt. Potalaka, and that's totally fine too!
gassho
Rory
^^whataboutism^^

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Yes, in times past there were schools that were committed to the aspiration for birth in the Pure Land of different Buddhas, including Medicine Buddha, Akshobhya, and Maitreya. But as you know, that is not what is meant by “Pure Land” practice at present or in the main.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

Fortyeightvows wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:18 pmCan you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
Nikaya buddhism of the pali suttas and mahayana...

This is not true. The evidence of this is that bhikṣus who followed Mahāyāna lived side by side with non-Mahāyāna bhikṣus.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

DGA wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:17 pm
Motova wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm Why would any Mahayana practitioner ignore Amitabha's Pure Land?
I don't think that Nichiren was telling people to ignore Sukhavati.
This is an interesting topic. I don't know if he did or if he did not.

I do know that many of the contemporary Nichiren Buddhists I have engaged with do not view an aspiration for rebirth in Sukhavati as a good way to use the current lifetime one has. (Am I off base here?)
Apparently, one of Nicjhiren's beefs with Honen was not that Honen followed pure land sūtras, but rather, that he viewed Honen as advocating the discarding of all other sūtras besides the three pure land sūtras.

As for your second point, I agree with you that in conversations I have had with Nichiren Buddhists in the West, they generally deride Nembutsu as a false practice or irrelevant practice.
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Sentient Light »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:18 pmCan you list some more forms of Buddhism which are incompatible with other forms of Buddhism?
Nikaya buddhism of the pali suttas and mahayana...

This is not true. The evidence of this is that bhikṣus who followed Mahāyāna lived side by side with non-Mahāyāna bhikṣus.
Also worth pointing out that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teacher practiced the Bodhisattva path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangoda ... reya_Thero

The idea that Theravada rejects the path of bodhisattvas is a very recent one. What they reject is the Mahayana sutras, which is why their view of the bodhisattva path consists of ten perfections rather than six... Their bodhisattva path comes from a different literary tradition than ours.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

Sentient Light wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 am

Nikaya buddhism of the pali suttas and mahayana...

This is not true. The evidence of this is that bhikṣus who followed Mahāyāna lived side by side with non-Mahāyāna bhikṣus.
Also worth pointing out that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teacher practiced the Bodhisattva path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangoda ... reya_Thero

The idea that Theravada rejects the path of bodhisattvas is a very recent one. What they reject is the Mahayana sutras, which is why their view of the bodhisattva path consists of ten perfections rather than six... Their bodhisattva path comes from a different literary tradition than ours.
We also have ten perfections. As far as I can tell, the Theravadin bodhisattva literature, what they have of it, is derivative of early Mahāyāna.

The main point is that arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas are all equal with respect to the eradication of afflictions.
User avatar
coffeebeans
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:27 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by coffeebeans »

I've found this piece of the Mahasiddha Virupa's biography interesting, if accurate:
Although he gave teachings on both Theravadin and Mahayana texts, he
devoted most of his own time and energy to the esoteric practices of Vajrayana.
Link.
User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 2034
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Helena, MT
Contact:

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:25 pm
Sentient Light wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm


This is not true. The evidence of this is that bhikṣus who followed Mahāyāna lived side by side with non-Mahāyāna bhikṣus.
Also worth pointing out that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teacher practiced the Bodhisattva path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangoda ... reya_Thero

The idea that Theravada rejects the path of bodhisattvas is a very recent one. What they reject is the Mahayana sutras, which is why their view of the bodhisattva path consists of ten perfections rather than six... Their bodhisattva path comes from a different literary tradition than ours.
We also have ten perfections. As far as I can tell, the Theravadin bodhisattva literature, what they have of it, is derivative of early Mahāyāna.
Loppon, would you have any idea why the six perfections are most commonly heard of in East Asian Buddhism (or maybe just Zen) and not the ten? Was it the later Indian scholars like Chandrakirti that emphasized these? I know I never heard of 10 perfections in Mahayana before studying Chandrakirti, and any Zen practitioner I've ever talked to only speaks of six perfections.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Malcolm »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:25 pm
Sentient Light wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:15 pm

Also worth pointing out that Bhikkhu Bodhi's teacher practiced the Bodhisattva path: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balangoda ... reya_Thero

The idea that Theravada rejects the path of bodhisattvas is a very recent one. What they reject is the Mahayana sutras, which is why their view of the bodhisattva path consists of ten perfections rather than six... Their bodhisattva path comes from a different literary tradition than ours.
We also have ten perfections. As far as I can tell, the Theravadin bodhisattva literature, what they have of it, is derivative of early Mahāyāna.
Loppon, would you have any idea why the six perfections are most commonly heard of in East Asian Buddhism (or maybe just Zen) and not the ten? Was it the later Indian scholars like Chandrakirti that emphasized these? I know I never heard of 10 perfections in Mahayana before studying Chandrakirti, and any Zen practitioner I've ever talked to only speaks of six perfections.

The six perfections are emphasized because they are the practice of the bodhisattvas of the impure stages. The remaining four are practices of the bodhisattvas of the pure stages.
User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 2034
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Helena, MT
Contact:

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:25 pm

We also have ten perfections. As far as I can tell, the Theravadin bodhisattva literature, what they have of it, is derivative of early Mahāyāna.
Loppon, would you have any idea why the six perfections are most commonly heard of in East Asian Buddhism (or maybe just Zen) and not the ten? Was it the later Indian scholars like Chandrakirti that emphasized these? I know I never heard of 10 perfections in Mahayana before studying Chandrakirti, and any Zen practitioner I've ever talked to only speaks of six perfections.

The six perfections are emphasized because they are the practice of the bodhisattvas of the impure stages. The remaining four are practices of the bodhisattvas of the pure stages.
Ah! Good point, thanks :anjali:
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14465
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Queequeg »

narhwal90 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:43 pm
DGA wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:35 pm
1. What were Nichiren's thoughts on Pure Land practice and doctrine?
Nichiren asserted nembutsu as at best ineffective and at worst, destructive, and focus on Amida as an emmanation vs Sakyamuni is incorrect. I think the bulk of his polemical writings were directed at Pure Land. That said, he was a man of his time writing about issues of the day, it may be some of his language is more about personalities and a literal reading is misleading. I think Q can better address this point.
That about covers it.
DGA wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:35 pm 2. Is it possible to practice Nichiren's Buddhism adequately if one doesn't approve of Nichiren's teachings on particular topics, such as the appropriateness of various practices?
IMHO sure- note the various Nichiren schools. Some of the practices have evolved since Nichiren's time with the requisite skullduggery and politics, so appropriateness is often a relative thing anyhow. Adequately is an interesting term; I think that might mean the practitioner starts seeing transformation in their lives as a result of the practice. If thats happening, the SGI response would probably be "yes, adequate"- I would be surprised if the other schools would say something different though perhaps there would be disagreement related to the individual's practices eg Nichiren Shoshu would not approve of the use of an SGI gohonzon & so on.
Sure, one can practice Daimoku without forming any opinion on Pure Land. Most people have no particular first hand opinion of Pure Land, certainly outside Japan and even in Japan. And whatever people know as Pure Land now is a long way from whatever was the case in the 13th c.

I'd even argue that criticism is a provisional practice - a function of the Relative Sublime, something to be abandoned when the circumstances don't demand it any longer. Some in the Nichiren community would disagree. Many will agree.

No offense to anyone, but in the scheme of things, Buddha Dharma doesn't matter anymore. Most people are indifferent to it. What's the point in critiquing something when it has become little more than a social artifact in the vast majority of circumstances? Critiquing something that no one cares about is the definition of the pejorative sense of 'academic'. And all it does is bring ill repute to the Dharma.

In a robust Buddhist environment, there is a place for critical discussion. These days, it's great if someone sees a Buddha image and for a moment conceives an instant of appreciation, let alone joy or something more.
DGA wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:17 pm
Motova wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:50 pm Why would any Mahayana practitioner ignore Amitabha's Pure Land?
I don't think that Nichiren was telling people to ignore Sukhavati.
This is an interesting topic. I don't know if he did or if he did not.

I do know that many of the contemporary Nichiren Buddhists I have engaged with do not view an aspiration for rebirth in Sukhavati as a good way to use the current lifetime one has. (Am I off base here?)
While Malcolm's take on Nichiren is odd in referring to Gotoba and Wuzong, he's basically correct. The problem Nichiren found was the exclusivist Pure Land teachings. Some might think it ironic that he taught the exclusive Daimoku in response. This is a complex subject related to the discussion of Daimoku as definitive teaching. Simply put, Daimoku is the teaching and practice accessible to all people. It is on the continuum of the Perfect and Sudden teaching in Tiantai. It actually embraces all teachings as opened by the Sudden and Perfect. Another discussion.

There is no aspiration for Sukhavati because we have no affinity for it. That's probably where we ought to leave it. Anything more and emotions get stoked.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Admin_PC
Former staff member
Posts: 4860
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Pure Land and Nichiren Buddhisms Compatible With Each Other?

Post by Admin_PC »

"And whatever people know as Pure Land now is a long way from whatever was the case in the 13th c."

Actually I've been fairly surprised at just now much documentation there still is available in regards to rituals and practices - both internal documents and statements by contemporaries. We have a pretty good idea about what was practiced, when, and how. Of course; if this is in relation to accusations of antinomianism, we have records showing that the most egregious culprits were kicked out of the movement before they did their thing. Furthermore, dated letters show that the 7 article pledge (mandating proper behavior) wasn't just reactionary.
Post Reply

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”