Tiantai Meditation

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The Cicada
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Tiantai Meditation

Post by The Cicada » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:16 am

Relatively simple question here. How does Tiantai meditation differ from Zen meditation and what book is a good primer for it? I've read references indicating that Tiantai meditation is somehow involved and intricate, though this may only be a reference to the theory underlying the practice. I appreciate any information from anyone willing to offer it.

Thanks.

:namaste:

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

The Cicada wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:16 am
Relatively simple question here. How does Tiantai meditation differ from Zen meditation and what book is a good primer for it? I've read references indicating that Tiantai meditation is somehow involved and intricate, though this may only be a reference to the theory underlying the practice. I appreciate any information from anyone willing to offer it.

Thanks.

:namaste:
There are many, many different kinds of meditation under the TienTai umbrella, including walking nembutsu. From your question, I think you are interested in sitting meditation, so let's start there.

The instructions you would get in seated meditation from a Tendai teacher would show a direct continuity to Indic traditions. Where a Tibetan master would talk about Shamatha and Vipashyana, a Tendai master would talk about Shi and Kan, which translate Shamatha and Vipashyana. Calming the Mind, Discerning the Real. This is because both the Tendai version and one of any Tibetan traditions emerge from a common source.

There is a Ch'an influence on Tientai generally. The Ox-Head School. You can google around for it if you are interested in that genealogy.

Seishin wrote a useful primer on all this:

https://tendaiuk.files.wordpress.com/20 ... shikan.pdf

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by sth9784 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:05 pm

This is not really my area of expertise, but I noticed the topic, and thought that I could possibly help with two links.

As you may know BDK has released all of their available English translations online, for free, in PDF form.

Two of these may be of interest:
The Essentials of the Vinaya Tradition and The Collected Teachings of the Tendai Lotus School
Tiantai Lotus Texts

In The Essentials of the Vinaya Tradition and The Collected Teachings of the Tendai Lotus School, which consists of two texts, the second deals with Tendai doctrines, and has a brief section on practice.

In Tiantai Lotus Texts , which consists of four texts, the fourth text is a brief elaboration of T'ien-T'ai doctrine which concludes with a very brief description of practice.

For me at least, as a non-Tendai Buddhist, these texts helped me greatly in gaining some slight knowledge of the immense, and profound subject that is T'ien-T'ai.I hope they may be of use to you, and anyone else.
Crom!

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by rory » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:07 pm

Huge topic as Tendai meditation has so many forms! Okay let's start with the difference from Zen: Tendai does shikan meditation which has two parts: calming and that will be familiar - like counting on each breath but for Tendai that's just the start. As then there is contemplation. Tendai has a variety of practices for contemplation; just read the new translation of Maka Shikan or join the discussion group led by Rev. Jikai in the Tendai forum and you can ask him he's a Tendai Shu priest. I don't think Tendai does koan practice, but I could be wrong, just ask Rev. Jikai.
But here is a famous contemplation of Tendai which focuses on Tiantai philosophy that is the Truth of the Middle: all phenomena are provisionally real, all phenomena are empty; both are true simultaneously:
Perfect and Sudden Calming-and-Contemplation
The perfect and sudden calming and contemplation from the very beginning takes ultimate reality as its object. No matter what the object of contemplation might be, it is seen to be identical to the middle. There is nothing that is not true reality. When one fixes the mind on the dharmadhatu as object and unifies one’s mindfulness with the dharmadhatu as it is, then there is not a single sight nor smell that is not the middle way. The same goes for the realm of self, the realm of Buddha, and the realm of living beings. Since all aggregates and sense-accesses of body and mind are thusness, there is no suffering to be cast away. Since nescience and the afflictions are themselves identical with enlightenment, there is no origiina of suffering to be eradicated. Since the two extreme views are the middle way and false views are the right way, there is no path to be cultivated. Since samsara is identical with nirvana, there is no cessation to be achieved. Because of the intrinsic inextistence of suffering and its origin, the mundane does not exist; because of the inexistence of of the path and its cessation, the supramundane does not exist. A single, unalloyed reality is all there is – no entities whatever exists outside of it. That all entities are by nature quiescent is called “calming”; that, though quiescent, this nature is ever luminous, is called “contemplation”. Though a verbal distinction is made between earlier and later stages of practice, there is no ultimate duality, no distinction between them. This is what is called “the perfect and sudden calming and contemplation.
Donner and Stevensen trans. of Maka Shikan

There are tons of contemplative practices as Tendai encompasses: Pure Land, Esoteric, Meditation so whatever moves you is what you would focus on. I'm a Pure Lander and there are tons of meditations that involve visualization, contemplation, chanting, esoteric, exoteric...you name it!

I hope this has been somewhat helpful to just give you an inkling of the sheer variety of practices there are!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by rory » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:08 pm

Huge topic as Tendai meditation has so many forms! Okay let's start with the difference from Zen: Tendai does shikan meditation which has two parts: calming and that will be familiar - like counting on each breath but for Tendai that's just the start. As then there is contemplation. Tendai has a variety of practices for contemplation; just read the new translation of Maka Shikan or join the discussion group led by Rev. Jikai in the Tendai forum and you can ask him he's a Tendai Shu priest. I don't think Tendai does koan practice, but I could be wrong, just ask Rev. Jikai.
But here is a famous contemplation of Tendai, Endon Sho, which focuses on Tiantai philosophy that is the Truth of the Middle: all phenomena are provisionally real, all phenomena are empty; both are true simultaneously:
Perfect and Sudden Calming-and-Contemplation
The perfect and sudden calming and contemplation from the very beginning takes ultimate reality as its object. No matter what the object of contemplation might be, it is seen to be identical to the middle. There is nothing that is not true reality. When one fixes the mind on the dharmadhatu as object and unifies one’s mindfulness with the dharmadhatu as it is, then there is not a single sight nor smell that is not the middle way. The same goes for the realm of self, the realm of Buddha, and the realm of living beings. Since all aggregates and sense-accesses of body and mind are thusness, there is no suffering to be cast away. Since nescience and the afflictions are themselves identical with enlightenment, there is no origiina of suffering to be eradicated. Since the two extreme views are the middle way and false views are the right way, there is no path to be cultivated. Since samsara is identical with nirvana, there is no cessation to be achieved. Because of the intrinsic inextistence of suffering and its origin, the mundane does not exist; because of the inexistence of of the path and its cessation, the supramundane does not exist. A single, unalloyed reality is all there is – no entities whatever exists outside of it. That all entities are by nature quiescent is called “calming”; that, though quiescent, this nature is ever luminous, is called “contemplation”. Though a verbal distinction is made between earlier and later stages of practice, there is no ultimate duality, no distinction between them. This is what is called “the perfect and sudden calming and contemplation
. Donner and Stevensen trans. of Maka Shikan

There are tons of contemplative practices as Tendai encompasses: Pure Land, Esoteric, Meditation so whatever moves you is what you would focus on. I'm a Pure Lander and there are tons of meditations that involve visualization, contemplation, chanting, esoteric, exoteric...you name it!

I hope this has been somewhat helpful to just give you an inkling of the sheer variety of practices there are!
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by pueraeternus » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:30 am

For an introduction to the basics of Tiantai meditation, Ven Dharmamitra's 2 books "The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation" and "The Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime" is a good place to start: http://www.kalavinka.org/.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:33 pm

四念處。一觀身。色蘊。二觀受是苦。 受蘊。
Four mindfulness bases. First, contemplation of body as not pure [aviśuddhi?]. The form aggregate. Second, contemplation of sensations as duḥkha. The sensation aggregate.

三觀心無常。 識蘊。四觀法無我。 想行蘊。
Third, contemplation of mind as inconstant. The consciousness aggregate. Fourth, contemplation of dharmāḥ as without ātma. The perception and volition aggregates.


This does not really satisfy the requests of the OP for material related to the intersection of Tiāntāi & Zen, but, AFAIK, contemplation of the mindfulness bases is not a part of "traditional" Zen. I could be wrong.

Tiāntāi draws on a wide variety of sources for Buddhavacana. This mapping of mindfulness-bases-onto-aggregates comes from the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma. It is recounted to us by Ven Chegwan in his Tiāntāi sìjiāoyí, which is not really a "meditation text". It is more of a quasi-catechesis. Or a Tiāntāi handbook.

For texts, I would look to 六妙法門 ('Six Subtle Dharma Gates') by Ven Zhìyǐ. It's in some of the links that people have already provided, usually under the translated title " Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime".
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by Seishin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm

I have little experience with zen Buddhism/meditation so I may be way off base. My experience with zen meditation is that it was either meditation on the breath, meditation on koan, or 'just sit'. What is meant by 'just sit' (I apologise for not doing it justice) is that one sits with whatever arises; neither doing nor not doing.

Tendai meditation has elements of this but its focus is somewhat different. For a starters, as DGA pointed out, we focus on SHI (shamatha) and KAN (vipashyana). There are many methods of SHI and many methods of KAN. The most common form of SHI is meditation on the breath, so not too dissimilar to zen Buddhism. As for KAN, there are various methods such as meditation on the Three Truths (Emptiness, Relativity and The Middle), as well as meditations of the 5 hindrances. As far as I'm aware, these don't appear in Japanese Zen (I might be wrong). In Tendai meditation these two elements of SHI and KAN are one single meditation. Depending on the student (and teacher) these may be either two "stages" in one single meditation.... or they are a single seamless meditation. This single seamless meditation is called 'Endon Shikan' which means 'Perfect Sudden Shamatha/Vipashyana' (see Rory's post above for a description). The Endon Shikan can be described as the pinnacle of Tendai meditation. I have found the idea of Endon Shikan to be not too dissimilar to the idea of Japanese Zen (or Chinese Chan for that matter) in that Zen patriarchs often describe Chan/Zen as a meditation that encapsulates both Shamatha and Vipashyana.

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm

Seishin wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm
This single seamless meditation is called 'Endon Shikan' which means 'Perfect Sudden Shamatha/Vipashyana' (see Rory's post above for a description). The Endon Shikan can be described as the pinnacle of Tendai meditation. I have found the idea of Endon Shikan to be not too dissimilar to the idea of Japanese Zen (or Chinese Chan for that matter) in that Zen patriarchs often describe Chan/Zen as a meditation that encapsulates both Shamatha and Vipashyana.
In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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The Cicada
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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by The Cicada » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:11 pm

It seems that this thread has caught all of the gold in its pan that it's going to, but gold it is! This much has got me started and the steps to follow from here are clear. Thank everyone so much who has contributed!

:namaste:

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm
Seishin wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm
This single seamless meditation is called 'Endon Shikan' which means 'Perfect Sudden Shamatha/Vipashyana' (see Rory's post above for a description). The Endon Shikan can be described as the pinnacle of Tendai meditation. I have found the idea of Endon Shikan to be not too dissimilar to the idea of Japanese Zen (or Chinese Chan for that matter) in that Zen patriarchs often describe Chan/Zen as a meditation that encapsulates both Shamatha and Vipashyana.
In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm
Seishin wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm
This single seamless meditation is called 'Endon Shikan' which means 'Perfect Sudden Shamatha/Vipashyana' (see Rory's post above for a description). The Endon Shikan can be described as the pinnacle of Tendai meditation. I have found the idea of Endon Shikan to be not too dissimilar to the idea of Japanese Zen (or Chinese Chan for that matter) in that Zen patriarchs often describe Chan/Zen as a meditation that encapsulates both Shamatha and Vipashyana.
In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?
Does shikantaza involve the simultaneity of samatha and vipasyana? I don't know the answer to this question.

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:43 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm


In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?
Does shikantaza involve the simultaneity of samatha and vipasyana? I don't know the answer to this question.
I’ve never seen it described that way, but the traditions that are said to have been the inspiration for it are on record as saying this. To be honest, instructions for shikantaza never make any sense to me. Dogen explicitly states that non-thought means no thought, and that those with will prevail, that it’s not about slumber, absentmindedness, or lack of focus. Normally I just sit as I would using an object of meditation, minus the object. Minus any object at all in fact.

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:55 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm


In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?
Does shikantaza involve the simultaneity of samatha and vipasyana? I don't know the answer to this question.
I seem to remember a thread where we argued about this not too long ago. You can see a parallel in Tibetan traditions where there are varying degrees of graduated shamatha/vipaysana, and those non-graduated practices which already start from the "unified" version.

Having meditated in both traditions, I find it weird that shikantaza could be anything other than the unity of shamatha and vipaysana (which does not denote a graduated approach - see thread for questions), if it is, what is it? Maybe that's just because my biases are now informed by the tibetan model.

I'll dig around for the thread.

Here we go: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... za#p385199
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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:34 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:43 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:55 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm


Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?
Does shikantaza involve the simultaneity of samatha and vipasyana? I don't know the answer to this question.
I’ve never seen it described that way, but the traditions that are said to have been the inspiration for it are on record as saying this. To be honest, instructions for shikantaza never make any sense to me. Dogen explicitly states that non-thought means no thought, and that those with will prevail, that it’s not about slumber, absentmindedness, or lack of focus. Normally I just sit as I would using an object of meditation, minus the object. Minus any object at all in fact.
I think it may be one of those deals where you call it a frying pan and I call it a wok, but either one will cook the eggs.

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:40 pm
Seishin wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:23 pm
This single seamless meditation is called 'Endon Shikan' which means 'Perfect Sudden Shamatha/Vipashyana' (see Rory's post above for a description). The Endon Shikan can be described as the pinnacle of Tendai meditation. I have found the idea of Endon Shikan to be not too dissimilar to the idea of Japanese Zen (or Chinese Chan for that matter) in that Zen patriarchs often describe Chan/Zen as a meditation that encapsulates both Shamatha and Vipashyana.
In terms of ultimate bodhicitta, unified śamatha and vipaśyāna is or should be the goal of all practitioners of Buddhadharma.
Assuming that this is the case, how do we propose that a history of a single practice such as shikantaza or koan introspection arises? Does this only happen in Japan or does it also happen elsewhere in Zen/Ch’an/Seon/Thein? Or does it fact arise? Could it be omissions in translation or understanding? Or does a unified practice simply encompass what both practices previously encompass? It’s an interesting question from a historical perspective, because one could assume no teacher from India could have proposed it? It could simply be that Zen represents a mashup of things on more than one level?
The goal of śamatha and vipaśyāna is to unify them. Some people have the capacity to unify them from the beginning, i.e., leaping with both feet; but most people can't leap very far and make more progress by first taking one step (śamatha), then another step (vipaśyāna) and so on, gradually developing their abilities.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by rory » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 pm

Chigi (Zhiyi, Chih-I) critiqued Northern and Southern Ch'an for this, he received transmission from Ox-Head Ch'an.

Read this it's an excellent article by Paul Swanson the translator of Zhiyi's great work on meditation: Maka Shikan
https://www.academia.edu/1092296/Chih-i ... _Chih-kuan
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by jake » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:43 pm

rory wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 pm
Chigi (Zhiyi, Chih-I) critiqued Northern and Southern Ch'an for this, he received transmission from Ox-Head Ch'an.

Read this it's an excellent article by Paul Swanson the translator of Zhiyi's great work on meditation: Maka Shikan
https://www.academia.edu/1092296/Chih-i ... _Chih-kuan
gassho
Rory
Hi Rory,

Can you explain a bit more? I don't know to what your post refers when you write: "critiqued Northern and Southern Ch'an for this."

In the abstract of the article you reference it's written:
Further, although Chih-i and Bodhidharma were contemporaries, there is no indication that their paths ever crossed. There was no “Zen school” in Chih-i’s time, at least not in the sense of the later tradition that traces its lineage through Bodhidharma. Chih-i’s comments on “Zen/ch’an” refer to dhyana meditation, or to unidentified “Zen masters” 禅師 who apparently taught a form of Buddhism that emphasized the sole practice of meditation and thus were criticized by Chih-i as proponents of an
"extreme” form of Buddhism."
How did Zhiyi receive transmission in the Ox-Head Chan if, as Swanson says, there was no "Zen School" in Zhiyi's time? Or maybe I misunderstood something? :)
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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:30 pm

jake wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:43 pm
rory wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 pm
Chigi (Zhiyi, Chih-I) critiqued Northern and Southern Ch'an for this, he received transmission from Ox-Head Ch'an.

Read this it's an excellent article by Paul Swanson the translator of Zhiyi's great work on meditation: Maka Shikan
https://www.academia.edu/1092296/Chih-i ... _Chih-kuan


Can you explain a bit more? I don't know to what your post refers when you write: "critiqued Northern and Southern Ch'an for this."
This is interesting.

What, exactly, did Zhiyi critique Northern and Southern Ch'an for, and how did Zhiyi's own position depart from these? Was Zhiyi's position identical to that of Ox Head Ch'an, or different in some way? (In order to get at that one, we'd need to know what Ox Head Ch'an was about...)

I didn't see any mention of these topics in the Swanson article.

DGA
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Re: Tiantai Meditation

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:43 pm

I'd like to correct a mistake I made in a post earlier in this thread. I wrote
DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm
There is a Ch'an influence on Tientai generally. The Ox-Head School.
when I should have written:

There is a Ch'an influence in Tendai generally. The Ox-Head School. Saicho (Tendai), not Zhiyi (Tientai).

Details:

viewtopic.php?t=15672#p217584

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