"One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

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krodha
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by krodha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:38 pm
SonamTashi wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:33 pm
Sherab wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am The only way an ordinary being can properly analyze the relative is this: (I wrote this previously)
In analyzing the relative, we look at the appearance and then ask what is underneath that appearance. So we look at an apple and see that it is formed from molecules. The apple therefore does not exist at the level of the molecules. The apple therefore is simply the appearance of the apple if we don't look at the underlying reality of the apple. Similarly, when we look at a molecule, we see that it is comprised of atoms. At the level of the atom, the molecule does not exist and is simply an appearance. When we look at an atom, we see that it comprises other particles such as quarks and electrons.....

Do you agree or do you think there is a better approach?
At this point, your argument has completely left the confines of Buddhism (and entered the framework of materialism and a very materialistic view of science);
How is it significantly different than when Nāgasena Bhikṣu deconstructs the chariot for Menander I principally by breaking it down into its constituents in analysis?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "properly" and "only" and whatnot in the above quoted material, but I wouldn't call deconstructing the atom unBuddhist.
For one, the alleged chariot and its parts are held to be equally unfindable, and the chariot is not considered to be composed of parts. At least per Candrakīrti's rendition.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:56 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:38 pm
SonamTashi wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:33 pm

At this point, your argument has completely left the confines of Buddhism (and entered the framework of materialism and a very materialistic view of science);
How is it significantly different than when Nāgasena Bhikṣu deconstructs the chariot for Menander I principally by breaking it down into its constituents in analysis?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "properly" and "only" and whatnot in the above quoted material, but I wouldn't call deconstructing the atom unBuddhist.
For one, the alleged chariot and its parts are held to be equally unfindable, and the chariot is not considered to be composed of parts. At least per Candrakīrti's rendition.
But look at what it says: "We look at A and see that it is formed of B. At the level of B, A does not exist. We look at B, and see that it is formed of C...", ad infinitum, well-past the exhaustion of the latin alphabet.

Nothing is found here either.

Whether or not they intended it, the user Sherab presented the Chariot simile, essentially. I am not familiar with whether or not Ven Candrakīrti wrote a commentary on the Nāgasenabhikṣusūtra.

If I can some up my thoughts and the motivation for my participation here: I don't think the chariot simile is unBuddhist, and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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fuki
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by fuki »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
Thank you.

:namaste:
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen nederland.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/
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Caoimhghín
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

fuki wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
Thank you.

:namaste:
I should clarify though that the specific phrasing of "unBuddhist" was my contribution. No one actually said that.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
krodha
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by krodha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm
krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:56 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:38 pm How is it significantly different than when Nāgasena Bhikṣu deconstructs the chariot for Menander I principally by breaking it down into its constituents in analysis?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "properly" and "only" and whatnot in the above quoted material, but I wouldn't call deconstructing the atom unBuddhist.
For one, the alleged chariot and its parts are held to be equally unfindable, and the chariot is not considered to be composed of parts. At least per Candrakīrti's rendition.
But look at what it says: "We look at A and see that it is formed of B. At the level of B, A does not exist. We look at B, and see that it is formed of C...", ad infinitum, well-past the exhaustion of the latin alphabet.

Nothing is found here either.

Whether or not they intended it, the user Sherab presented the Chariot simile, essentially. I am not familiar with whether or not Ven Candrakīrti wrote a commentary on the Nāgasenabhikṣusūtra.

If I can some up my thoughts and the motivation for my participation here: I don't think the chariot simile is unBuddhist, and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
That is not how the chariot example works in Candrakīrti's exposition, but perhaps that is now it is in the teaching you are referring to.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:37 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm
krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:56 pm
For one, the alleged chariot and its parts are held to be equally unfindable, and the chariot is not considered to be composed of parts. At least per Candrakīrti's rendition.
But look at what it says: "We look at A and see that it is formed of B. At the level of B, A does not exist. We look at B, and see that it is formed of C...", ad infinitum, well-past the exhaustion of the latin alphabet.

Nothing is found here either.

Whether or not they intended it, the user Sherab presented the Chariot simile, essentially. I am not familiar with whether or not Ven Candrakīrti wrote a commentary on the Nāgasenabhikṣusūtra.

If I can some up my thoughts and the motivation for my participation here: I don't think the chariot simile is unBuddhist, and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
That is not how the chariot example works in Candrakīrti's exposition, but perhaps that is now it is in the teaching you are referring to.
How does Ven Candrakīrti treat the long tradition of the chariot simile?

'Ad infinitum' is the novel element of its presentation in this thread. Nāgasena Bhikṣu is content to simply break down the chariot into constituents. He doesn't further break them down into particles etc.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Sherab
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Sherab »

Malcolm, do let me know if you are not going to reply to my question to you below.

Sherab wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 am From my perspective Malcolm, there were quite a few points that I made that you did not address directly nor satisfactorily.

I will now focus only on one point, that is the method of analysis of the relative.

The only way an ordinary being can properly analyze the relative is this: (I wrote this previously)
In analyzing the relative, we look at the appearance and then ask what is underneath that appearance. So we look at an apple and see that it is formed from molecules. The apple therefore does not exist at the level of the molecules. The apple therefore is simply the appearance of the apple if we don't look at the underlying reality of the apple. Similarly, when we look at a molecule, we see that it is comprised of atoms. At the level of the atom, the molecule does not exist and is simply an appearance. When we look at an atom, we see that it comprises other particles such as quarks and electrons.....

Do you agree or do you think there is a better approach?
Last edited by Sherab on Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Sherab »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm
krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:56 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:38 pm How is it significantly different than when Nāgasena Bhikṣu deconstructs the chariot for Menander I principally by breaking it down into its constituents in analysis?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the "properly" and "only" and whatnot in the above quoted material, but I wouldn't call deconstructing the atom unBuddhist.
For one, the alleged chariot and its parts are held to be equally unfindable, and the chariot is not considered to be composed of parts. At least per Candrakīrti's rendition.
But look at what it says: "We look at A and see that it is formed of B. At the level of B, A does not exist. We look at B, and see that it is formed of C...", ad infinitum, well-past the exhaustion of the latin alphabet.

Nothing is found here either.

Whether or not they intended it, the user Sherab presented the Chariot simile, essentially. I am not familiar with whether or not Ven Candrakīrti wrote a commentary on the Nāgasenabhikṣusūtra.

If I can some up my thoughts and the motivation for my participation here: I don't think the chariot simile is unBuddhist, and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
Thanks Coëmgenu. I think you can see the place where the analysis will lead to and the questions that it will raise. It is clear that I can't say the same for certain people on the forum.
krodha
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by krodha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:03 pm
krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:37 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:06 pm But look at what it says: "We look at A and see that it is formed of B. At the level of B, A does not exist. We look at B, and see that it is formed of C...", ad infinitum, well-past the exhaustion of the latin alphabet.

Nothing is found here either.

Whether or not they intended it, the user Sherab presented the Chariot simile, essentially. I am not familiar with whether or not Ven Candrakīrti wrote a commentary on the Nāgasenabhikṣusūtra.

If I can some up my thoughts and the motivation for my participation here: I don't think the chariot simile is unBuddhist, and it reminds me of people who call other people names like "unAmerican" when I see people calling others unBuddhist and the likes.
That is not how the chariot example works in Candrakīrti's exposition, but perhaps that is now it is in the teaching you are referring to.
How does Ven Candrakīrti treat the long tradition of the chariot simile?

'Ad infinitum' is the novel element of its presentation in this thread. Nāgasena Bhikṣu is content to simply break down the chariot into constituents. He doesn't further break them down into particles etc.
Candrakīrti does not break the chariot into constituent pieces but instead demonstrates that the basis of imputation does not contain or produce a chariot at all.

In his Madhyamakāvatāra he employs the sevenfold reasoning in order to establish the lack of a fundamental, core identity (self) in phenomena. Candrakīrti argues that the identity of a given person, place, thing, etc., is merely an inferential, conventional designation that does not ultimately correlate to the appearances it is attributed to. Meaning: the alleged object that the designation infers (the existence of) cannot be found when sought due to the fact that the alleged object itself cannot bear keen analysis.

To completely exhaust all possible landing points, Candrakīrti demonstrates:

(i) There is no chariot which is other than its parts

(ii) There is no chariot which is the same as its parts

(iii) There is no chariot which possesses its parts

(iv) There is no chariot which depends on its parts

(v) There is no chariot upon which the parts depend

(vi) There is no chariot which is the collection of its parts

(vii) There is no chariot which is the shape of its parts
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:00 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:03 pm
krodha wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:37 pm
That is not how the chariot example works in Candrakīrti's exposition, but perhaps that is now it is in the teaching you are referring to.
How does Ven Candrakīrti treat the long tradition of the chariot simile?

'Ad infinitum' is the novel element of its presentation in this thread. Nāgasena Bhikṣu is content to simply break down the chariot into constituents. He doesn't further break them down into particles etc.
Candrakīrti does not break the chariot into constituent pieces but instead demonstrates that the basis of imputation does not contain or produce a chariot at all.
Constituent pieces or constituent parts, either way, the sevenfold negation appears to rely on breaking down the suggestion of "a chariot" principally by looking at the relation of the suggested entity and the parts that comprise it:
krodha wrote:(i) There is no chariot which is other than its parts

(ii) There is no chariot which is the same as its parts

(iii) There is no chariot which possesses its parts

(iv) There is no chariot which depends on its parts

(v) There is no chariot upon which the parts depend

(vi) There is no chariot which is the collection of its parts

(vii) There is no chariot which is the shape of its parts
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
krodha
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by krodha »

Yet there are no parts or pieces to an entity that was never there in the first place. Hence why Nāgārjuna asserts that even constituent aggregates are merely inferential conventions.

And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Malcolm »

krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 am Yet there are no parts or pieces to an entity that was never there in the first place. Hence why Nāgārjuna asserts that even constituent aggregates are merely inferential conventions.

And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
Yes. The question isn’t, as some mistakenly suppose, what the chariot is, but rather where the chariot is. One finds it isn’t anywhere at all, it’s just an imputation.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

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A bank robbery was foiled when the robbers, having grabbed the cash, fled the building, only to find that their getaway car didn't actually exist. 'I was sure I had parked it there and left the engine running', said the driver, as he was hauled off in the police paddy wagon, 'but when we came back out, it couldn't be found. It turned out that it had only ever been an imputation, although it beats me how we used it to get there in the first place'.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Malcolm »

Wayfarer wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:03 am A bank robbery was foiled when the robbers, having grabbed the cash, fled the building, only to find that their getaway car didn't actually exist. 'I was sure I had parked it there and left the engine running', said the driver, as he was hauled off in the police paddy wagon, 'but when we came back out, it couldn't be found. It turned out that it had only ever been an imputation, although it beats me how we used it to get there in the first place'.
What a car is, is not the question. We all know what a car is. Where the car is in what we think a car is, is a separate question.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 am And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
By having us look at the suggested chariot at the level of its constituents rather than at the level of the suggested compounded object.

Quite literally deconstructing the suggestion.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
krodha
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by krodha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:14 am
krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 am And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
By having us look at the suggested chariot at the level of its constituents rather than at the level of the suggested compounded object.

Quite literally deconstructing the suggestion.
In a way, perhaps. But again, it is more geared towards challenging the assumption that there is an entity that possesses qualities and characteristics.

Like an apple, as an entity, that possesses the characteristic of being red, being round, being smooth etc., we even say "the apple is red," and so on. Which is fine on a conventional level, but becomes problematic when we misconstrue the situation and believe there is truly an entity there.

Candrakīrti is saying "show me the apple." Find the core entity.

The authentic failure to find the entity in question is the act of realizing its non-arising.
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:26 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:14 am
krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 am And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
By having us look at the suggested chariot at the level of its constituents rather than at the level of the suggested compounded object.

Quite literally deconstructing the suggestion.
In a way, perhaps. But again, it is more geared towards challenging the assumption that there is an entity that possesses qualities and characteristics.

Like an apple, as an entity, that possesses the characteristic of being red, being round, being smooth etc., we even say "the apple is red," and so on. Which is fine on a conventional level, but becomes problematic when we misconstrue the situation and believe there is truly an entity there.

Candrakīrti is saying "show me the apple." Find the core entity.

The authentic failure to find the entity in question is the act of realizing its non-arising.
There may be a small matter of confusion over what "deconstruct" means. I'm using it in this sense:

analyze (a text or a linguistic or conceptual system) by deconstruction, typically in order to expose its hidden internal assumptions and contradictions and subvert its apparent significance or unity.

Rather than in the sense of "a deconstructed pizza". Which is wheat, tomatos, a cow, and a pig, etc.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Malcolm »

Everything is emptiness, emptiness is not just a concept, the nature of all phenomena does not truly exist.
-- Khenpo Sodhar
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:14 am
krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:01 am And Candrakīrti isn't suggesting one break down the chariot, rather he is challenging you to locate the chariot in general.
By having us look at the suggested chariot at the level of its constituents rather than at the level of the suggested compounded object.

Quite literally deconstructing the suggestion.
The question is, where is the chariot?
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Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought

Post by Sherab »

krodha wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:00 am
To completely exhaust all possible landing points, Candrakīrti demonstrates:

(i) There is no chariot which is other than its parts

(ii) There is no chariot which is the same as its parts

(iii) There is no chariot which possesses its parts

(iv) There is no chariot which depends on its parts

(v) There is no chariot upon which the parts depend

(vi) There is no chariot which is the collection of its parts

(vii) There is no chariot which is the shape of its parts
There is no chariot other than the parts and the relation of the parts to one another.

So do the parts and the relation of the parts to one another truly exist then and is therefore the ultimate?

To answer this, you have to continue with the analysis at the level of the parts, and so on.

As I see it, the discussion on this topic hinges on the validation or invalidation of the method of analysis that I mentioned.

As I don't expect any further progress in this discussion, I am disengaging myself from it.
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