The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

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thomaslaw
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The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am

Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas

ItsRaining
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by ItsRaining » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am
Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas
I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:03 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am
Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas
How and why did Buddhism in the Thai tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Thai"? How and why did Buddhism in the Burmese tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Burmese"? How and why did Buddhism in the Cambodian tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Cambodian"? How and why did Buddhism in the Sri Lankan tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Sri Landkan"?

Classical or Literary Chinese was the Latin of East Asia. It was the language of intelligenstia, commerce, politics, & international communication in general. Most East Asian cultures, at one time or another, wrote their language in Classical/Literary Chinese characters.

For instance, today in Japan & Korea, formerly in Vietnam, the language was written in Chinese (and traditional native scripts, the Japanese being a direct adaption of the Chinese script for phonetic use). Chinese has a heavy presence on Mahāyāna forums because of this.

Relating to "doctrinal establishment", how did the "Thai" forest tradition develop? How did modern quasi-Theravādin Suttantā develop?

Tentative answer: people read/listened to Buddhavacana & their teachers, however their transmission, and understood in their ways.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am

I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.
Thanks for your response. Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:23 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am
Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:
Not in Tiāntāi.

This is a quotation from a Ziporyn text, I am still looking through The Dharma Flower's Profound Meaning to find context, in the interest of cross-referencing this against the original, but in the meantime it is all you have as per a Tiāntāi responce:
When the first type of [person] hears that “all dharmas are reducible to the neither defiled nor non-defiled,” they take it to mean that all dharmāḥ are inseparable from emptiness and that even if one were to traverse the entire universe, everywhere would be the same suchness [i.e. emptiness] as that found here as the suchness of, for example, this vase.

-Ven Zhìyǐ, 法華玄義 (The Dharma Flower’s Profound Meaning), Taishō 33.703a, citing the Mahāprajñāpāramitāsūtra Scroll 6, Ch 15, v 0561b20: “故一切法趣[…]”
The emptiness of my vase is not the "same" emptiness as your foot. They aren't both "one [same] mind".
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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