The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:52 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
This doesn't make sense Thomaslaw. Re-read it.

You are arguing that "Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism" believe a completely redundant doctrine: that phenomena manifest in the mind. Very profound, said no one.

The mind can be metaphysical or ontological if you want it to be. No one's the boss of you. If you want to be a Huáyán Buddhist, and believe in mental ontologies or metaphysics, go for it.

But what you wrote literally doesn't make sense. It made more sense when you were accusing these sects of believing that all minds are the same mind. Or was that what "all-emcompassing" was supposed to mean?

Also: prove it. Whatever it is. If it even can be proved.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:04 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
I believe Zhiyi disagreed with the 'mind first' aspect of yogacara, instead stating that mind and phenomena both arise simultaneously and are, in a sense, indistinguishable; where there is phenomena there is mind, where there is mind there is phenomena. So, mind does not create phenomena (ie phenomena are not manifestations of mind), in Tiantai thought, but neither does phenomena create mind, instead they are both mutual. I believe this can be found in the 摩訶止観

Equally, in Tendai, all phenomena are manifestations of (rather ARE) the primordial Tathāgata, which is why we say that all phenomena (even "blades of grass") have Buddha-nature.

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:10 pm

Look at it this way,

Take your quote here:
the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature
You mind is one. Your mind encompasses the all. Your mind is absolute, whatever you take that to mean. Your mind has Buddha-nature.

My mind is one. My mind encompasses the all. I guess it can be "absolute", whatever that means. I have Buddha-nature, too.

We don't have the same minds. This isn't a contradiction. There is no game of trickery of same-but-not-same. Our minds were never said to be the same mind in the first place.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:12 pm

Seishin wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:04 pm
Equally, in Tendai, all phenomena are manifestations of (rather ARE) the primordial Tathāgata, which is why we say that all phenomena (even "blades of grass") have Buddha-nature.
You're all too nice, Reverend.
:bow:

You should go looking into Tendai esoterica, Thomaslaw, if you want what you are looking for.
:reading: :rolleye:
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:17 pm

Consider this from Tendai monk, Ven Annen;
"Question: The Tendai School considers the Lotus [Sutra] to be the ultimate
teaching.… However, if the Lotus Sutra is considered to be ultimate, then Esoteric
teachings should be provisional. If Esoteric teachings are ultimate, then
the Lotus Sutra should be provisional. How can you say that they are identical?
Answer: The Lotus Sutra was preached through the acquired wisdom that everything
that arises and ceases is the one-mind (issai ishinshiki 一切一心識)….
Esoteric teachings were preached in terms of the innate wisdom that everything
is equal and is thus the one-mind (isshin isshinshiki 一心一心識)…. Thus
according to Zhiyi, the mind, Buddha, and sentient beings are not distinct.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a
horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different.
Even an instant of consciousness (keni isshin 芥爾一心) is replete with the three
thousand realms. This is the Shingon School’s innate wisdom that everything
is equal because all is the one-mind." Kyōji mondō 教時問答 (Questions and
answers about teachings and time periods)
https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/4331

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:18 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:12 pm
You're all too nice, Reverend.
:bow:
:namaste:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:27 pm

Seishin wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:18 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:12 pm
You're all too nice, Reverend.
:bow:
:namaste:
For the sake of a back-and-forth, though, to the above quotations from the Tendai Venerable.

All of this obv is IMO.

They are indistinct from 2 perspectives, and distinct from 1 perspective, all out of 3 perspectives in total (or perhaps it is better to say that they are neither distinct nor indistinct, from one perspective, distinct, from another perspective, and indistinct, from another perspective still).

Enumerating the particular perspective I am thinking of, this conventionality, either different or indifferent than it's emptiness, is Venerable Dharmakīrti:
The Cittamātra perspective also accepts that those representations, in which other’s actions and speech appear to us, would not have existed, if the special processes of other consciousnesses were not there.

[...]

Having known, through this inference, the existence of other mind, the mind as subject successively produces the effects which lead to the desired aim.
(Saṃtānāntarasiddhināmaprakaraṇa)

If the OP wants to go further in his quest for a particular kind of "one mind", then maybe he should visit the Nichiren forums. That might be interesting to read.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:21 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:52 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
This doesn't make sense Thomaslaw. Re-read it.

You are arguing that "Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism" believe a completely redundant doctrine: that phenomena manifest in the mind. Very profound, said no one.

The mind can be metaphysical or ontological if you want it to be. No one's the boss of you. If you want to be a Huáyán Buddhist, and believe in mental ontologies or metaphysics, go for it.

But what you wrote literally doesn't make sense. It made more sense when you were accusing these sects of believing that all minds are the same mind. Or was that what "all-emcompassing" was supposed to mean?

Also: prove it. Whatever it is. If it even can be proved.
The ontological teaching of the mind in Tiantai and Huayan cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and nan-existence. :rolleye: :thumbsup:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:26 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:27 pm
ItsRaining wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:56 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am


Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
Where are you getting this stuff? Tiantai and Huayan do not teach an universal mind.
He's getting it from the Mahāyānaśraddhotpādaśāstra.

Which is not a Tiāntāi text, nor has it traditionally been accepted by the Tiāntāi school in the past when it was new.
No, I am not getting it from 大乘起信論 :thumbsup:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:31 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:52 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am


Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
This doesn't make sense Thomaslaw. Re-read it.

You are arguing that "Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism" believe a completely redundant doctrine: that phenomena manifest in the mind. Very profound, said no one.

The mind can be metaphysical or ontological if you want it to be. No one's the boss of you. If you want to be a Huáyán Buddhist, and believe in mental ontologies or metaphysics, go for it.

But what you wrote literally doesn't make sense. It made more sense when you were accusing these sects of believing that all minds are the same mind. Or was that what "all-emcompassing" was supposed to mean?

Also: prove it. Whatever it is. If it even can be proved.
The ontological teaching of the mind in Tiantai and Huayan cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and nan-existence. :rolleye: :thumbsup:
Hmmmmmm. My glass of water is empty of both existence and non-existence. It's here. Do you want me to prove it exists? I can send you a picture of me holding it. If you are worried about photoshop, I can make it a video, which is much harder to fake.

Proving the ontological teaching of the mind in Tiantai and Huayan would involve showing us that teaching from a source.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:40 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:10 pm
Look at it this way,

Take your quote here:
the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature
You mind is one. Your mind encompasses the all. Your mind is absolute, whatever you take that to mean. Your mind has Buddha-nature.

My mind is one. My mind encompasses the all. I guess it can be "absolute", whatever that means. I have Buddha-nature, too.

We don't have the same minds. This isn't a contradiction. There is no game of trickery of same-but-not-same. Our minds were never said to be the same mind in the first place.
I think I agree with you on this point! :twothumbsup:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:47 am

How?!

But yay!

I suppose.

:shrug: :smile:

I will admit I still suspect you are here more for fun and scandal than anything else, to find out all of the funny things these Mahayanists believe, but maybe I'm wrong.

There's nothing wrong with being here for fun, though, as long as everything is civil.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 am

Seishin wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:17 pm
Consider this from Tendai monk, Ven Annen;
"Question: The Tendai School considers the Lotus [Sutra] to be the ultimate
teaching.… However, if the Lotus Sutra is considered to be ultimate, then Esoteric
teachings should be provisional. If Esoteric teachings are ultimate, then
the Lotus Sutra should be provisional. How can you say that they are identical?
Answer: The Lotus Sutra was preached through the acquired wisdom that everything
that arises and ceases is the one-mind (issai ishinshiki 一切一心識)….
Esoteric teachings were preached in terms of the innate wisdom that everything
is equal and is thus the one-mind (isshin isshinshiki 一心一心識)…. Thus
according to Zhiyi, the mind, Buddha, and sentient beings are not distinct.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a
horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different.
Even an instant of consciousness (keni isshin 芥爾一心) is replete with the three
thousand realms. This is the Shingon School’s innate wisdom that everything
is equal because all is the one-mind." Kyōji mondō 教時問答 (Questions and
answers about teachings and time periods)
https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/4331
Many thanks for your explanation. It seems that 一念三千 in TianTai and 一 真/一心法界 in HuaYan are connected with the idea of:
the mind is all phenomena and all phenomena are the mind, but at the same time the mind is in a leading function, 一切唯心造.

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 am
Many thanks for your explanation. It seems that 一念三千 in TianTai and 一 真/一心法界 in HuaYan are connected with the idea of:
the mind is all phenomena and all phenomena are the mind, but at the same time the mind is in a leading function, 一切唯心造.
This would depend on what you mean by a 'leading function'. As 'important'? Then yes, but as a first principle, no. As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 am

Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 am
Many thanks for your explanation. It seems that 一念三千 in TianTai and 一 真/一心法界 in HuaYan are connected with the idea of:
the mind is all phenomena and all phenomena are the mind, but at the same time the mind is in a leading function, 一切唯心造.
This would depend on what you mean by a 'leading function'. As 'important'? Then yes, but as a first principle, no. As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”
What is the meaning of 一切唯心造 'everything is created by the mind' in Tiantai and Huayan Buddhism? The term 一切唯心造 is found in the Huayan sutras. Does the Tiantai tradition also teach 一切唯心造?

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 am
Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 am
Many thanks for your explanation. It seems that 一念三千 in TianTai and 一 真/一心法界 in HuaYan are connected with the idea of:
the mind is all phenomena and all phenomena are the mind, but at the same time the mind is in a leading function, 一切唯心造.
This would depend on what you mean by a 'leading function'. As 'important'? Then yes, but as a first principle, no. As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”
What is the meaning of 一切唯心造 'everything is created by the mind' in Tiantai and Huayan Buddhism? The term 一切唯心造 is found in the Huayan sutras. Does the Tiantai tradition also teach 一切唯心造?
In the quote above, Ven Zhiyi says that the dharmāḥ are not created by the mind, nor is the mind created by the dharmāḥ.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:21 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 am
Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am


This would depend on what you mean by a 'leading function'. As 'important'? Then yes, but as a first principle, no. As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”
What is the meaning of 一切唯心造 'everything is created by the mind' in Tiantai and Huayan Buddhism? The term 一切唯心造 is found in the Huayan sutras. Does the Tiantai tradition also teach 一切唯心造?
In the quote above, Ven Zhiyi says that the dharmāḥ are not created by the mind, nor is the mind created by the dharmāḥ.
The Huayan sutra states:

"If people would like to know
All Buddhas of the three periods of time,
They should contemplate the nature of the Dharma Realm:
Everything is made from the mind alone."

若人欲了知,三世一切佛,應觀法界性,一切唯心造。

Do you suggest that the Tiantai master or the Lotus sutra does not teach: Everything is made from the mind alone?

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:07 am

Consider the shravaka Buddhism from the OtherWheel, Thomaslaw: are dharmāḥ citta-created?

How does a mental event come to be? Does it involve contact?
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:01 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:00 am
What is the meaning of 一切唯心造 'everything is created by the mind' in Tiantai and Huayan Buddhism? The term 一切唯心造 is found in the Huayan sutras. Does the Tiantai tradition also teach 一切唯心造?
I think my quote from Zhiyi should answer that question :smile:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:41 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 am
In the quote above, Ven Zhiyi says that the dharmāḥ are not created by the mind, nor is the mind created by the dharmāḥ.
The Huayan sutra states:

"If people would like to know
All Buddhas of the three periods of time,
They should contemplate the nature of the Dharma Realm:
Everything is made from the mind alone."

若人欲了知,三世一切佛,應觀法界性,一切唯心造。

Do you suggest that the Tiantai master or the Lotus sutra does not teach: Everything is made from the mind alone?
Zhiyi studied and practiced the Huayen Sutra intensively and ultimately relegated it to an inferior position to the Lotus Sutra because it mixed Gradual and Sudden, Provisional and Perfect teachings.

Zhiyi would not agree that dharmadhatu is mind alone because that proposes a vertical relationship privileging mind. This is a biased view and considered an inferior teaching by Zhiyi. Not rejected, but inferior.

Thomaslaw, you really ought to take these fellas' word for what Zhiyi teaches, especially where they support their assertions with quotes. Asking your question 10 different ways is not going to trick them into agreeing with your thesis. If you want to hear the unvarnished polemics of the Tiantai/Tendai tradition, they straight up say that the Huayen school stole Tiantai teachings and then corrupted them.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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