The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

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thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:23 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:41 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:49 am
In the quote above, Ven Zhiyi says that the dharmāḥ are not created by the mind, nor is the mind created by the dharmāḥ.
The Huayan sutra states:

"If people would like to know
All Buddhas of the three periods of time,
They should contemplate the nature of the Dharma Realm:
Everything is made from the mind alone."

若人欲了知,三世一切佛,應觀法界性,一切唯心造。

Do you suggest that the Tiantai master or the Lotus sutra does not teach: Everything is made from the mind alone?
Zhiyi studied and practiced the Huayen Sutra intensively and ultimately relegated it to an inferior position to the Lotus Sutra because it mixed Gradual and Sudden, Provisional and Perfect teachings.

Zhiyi would not agree that dharmadhatu is mind alone because that proposes a vertical relationship privileging mind. This is a biased view and considered an inferior teaching by Zhiyi. Not rejected, but inferior.

Thomaslaw, you really ought to take these fellas' word for what Zhiyi teaches, especially where they support their assertions with quotes. Asking your question 10 different ways is not going to trick them into agreeing with your thesis. If you want to hear the unvarnished polemics of the Tiantai/Tendai tradition, they straight up say that the Huayen school stole Tiantai teachings and then corrupted them.
Many thanks for your explanation indeed. Can we say:

The Lotus sutra does not have the words or teaching: 一切唯心造

Zhiyi follows the Lotus sutra, and considers the 'mind alone' teaching is inferior, but not rejected.

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Queequeg
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:01 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:23 am
Zhiyi follows the Lotus sutra, and considers the 'mind alone' teaching is inferior, but not rejected.
Simply, yes. But there's more to it than that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:51 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:23 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:41 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:21 am


The Huayan sutra states:

"If people would like to know
All Buddhas of the three periods of time,
They should contemplate the nature of the Dharma Realm:
Everything is made from the mind alone."

若人欲了知,三世一切佛,應觀法界性,一切唯心造。

Do you suggest that the Tiantai master or the Lotus sutra does not teach: Everything is made from the mind alone?
Zhiyi studied and practiced the Huayen Sutra intensively and ultimately relegated it to an inferior position to the Lotus Sutra because it mixed Gradual and Sudden, Provisional and Perfect teachings.

Zhiyi would not agree that dharmadhatu is mind alone because that proposes a vertical relationship privileging mind. This is a biased view and considered an inferior teaching by Zhiyi. Not rejected, but inferior.

Thomaslaw, you really ought to take these fellas' word for what Zhiyi teaches, especially where they support their assertions with quotes. Asking your question 10 different ways is not going to trick them into agreeing with your thesis. If you want to hear the unvarnished polemics of the Tiantai/Tendai tradition, they straight up say that the Huayen school stole Tiantai teachings and then corrupted them.
Many thanks for your explanation indeed. Can we say:

The Lotus sutra does not have the words or teaching: 一切唯心造

Zhiyi follows the Lotus sutra, and considers the 'mind alone' teaching is inferior, but not rejected.
IMO Zhiyi "follows" the LS like Beethoven "followed" Diabelli.

With much rhapsody.

Obviously that is just IMO.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:27 pm

Instead of searching 一切唯心造 the OP should search 故一切法趣空. Ven Zhiyi himself gets the phrase 故一切法趣空 from reading in it in 小品般若波羅蜜經 T227.561b20.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:35 pm

故一切法趣空
Hence all dharmāḥ tend toward emptiness

This answers the OP's question about mental objects, as well.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Seishin wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:17 pm
[quoting annen]
Answer: The Lotus Sutra was preached through the acquired wisdom that everything
that arises and ceases is the one-mind (issai ishinshiki 一切一心識)….
Esoteric teachings were preached in terms of the innate wisdom that everything
is equal and is thus the one-mind (isshin isshinshiki 一心一心識)…. Thus
according to Zhiyi, the mind, Buddha, and sentient beings are not distinct.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a
horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different.
Even an instant of consciousness (keni isshin 芥爾一心) is replete with the three
thousand realms.
Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am
As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”
These quotes Seishin provided hit the heart of the matter.

Brook Ziporyn dcomes up with an alternate name for the theory of ichinen sanzen: omnicentric holism. Mind, in terms of ichinen, is not limited to the Mind in terms of the six sense bases, nor the mental aspects of the five aggregates. It is not exclusive, either. Mind is inclusive of those dharmas. Its deeper than the manas and alaya vijnanas. I've heard it compared to the Amala Vijnana, but have not found any sources to confirm that - its just something I've heard teachers explain years ago.

In my own language, I compare Mind to particular intersections of all causes and conditions, the ubiquitous nexus points in this omnicentric reality.

The intersection has no reality other than it being an intersection of causes and conditions, which in turn are intersections of causes and conditions. This is standard dependent origination/emptiness. Its another way of understanding the lack of essence in the Self. It however avoids the myopic extremes of some Mind Only views. All dharmas, sentient and insentient, are of a similar nature, differing in that each is a unique place in the dharmadhatu.

Another way to understand the dynamic is the Three Fold Inclusive Truth which undermines any disposition to privilege the ultimate over the relative or vice versa (neither horizontal nor vertical). It explains both the infinite number of Buddhas and their identity in Dharmakaya. It also explains the universality of Buddhanature and the inclusion of all beings on the path to Buddhahood.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

thomaslaw
Posts: 99
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:12 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:25 pm
Seishin wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:17 pm
[quoting annen]
Answer: The Lotus Sutra was preached through the acquired wisdom that everything
that arises and ceases is the one-mind (issai ishinshiki 一切一心識)….
Esoteric teachings were preached in terms of the innate wisdom that everything
is equal and is thus the one-mind (isshin isshinshiki 一心一心識)…. Thus
according to Zhiyi, the mind, Buddha, and sentient beings are not distinct.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a
horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different.
Even an instant of consciousness (keni isshin 芥爾一心) is replete with the three
thousand realms.
Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 am
As Zhiyi says in the 摩訶止観 “We do not say that the mind exists first and dharmas come to be later; we also do not say that dharmas exist first while the mind come to be later.”
These quotes Seishin provided hit the heart of the matter.

Brook Ziporyn dcomes up with an alternate name for the theory of ichinen sanzen: omnicentric holism. Mind, in terms of ichinen, is not limited to the Mind in terms of the six sense bases, nor the mental aspects of the five aggregates. It is not exclusive, either. Mind is inclusive of those dharmas. Its deeper than the manas and alaya vijnanas. I've heard it compared to the Amala Vijnana, but have not found any sources to confirm that - its just something I've heard teachers explain years ago.

In my own language, I compare Mind to particular intersections of all causes and conditions, the ubiquitous nexus points in this omnicentric reality.

The intersection has no reality other than it being an intersection of causes and conditions, which in turn are intersections of causes and conditions. This is standard dependent origination/emptiness. Its another way of understanding the lack of essence in the Self. It however avoids the myopic extremes of some Mind Only views. All dharmas, sentient and insentient, are of a similar nature, differing in that each is a unique place in the dharmadhatu.

Another way to understand the dynamic is the Three Fold Inclusive Truth which undermines any disposition to privilege the ultimate over the relative or vice versa (neither horizontal nor vertical). It explains both the infinite number of Buddhas and their identity in Dharmakaya. It also explains the universality of Buddhanature and the inclusion of all beings on the path to Buddhahood.
You said: "Mind is inclusive of those dharmas". It seems to suggest the mind is a metaphysical idea. It does not mean mind comes first or mind only, but all dharmas are presented in the mind.

thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:16 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:35 pm
故一切法趣空
Hence all dharmāḥ tend toward emptiness

This answers the OP's question about mental objects, as well.
The mind is also empty. But all dharmas are presented in the mind, according to the TianTai and HuaYan.

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:35 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:12 am
You said: "Mind is inclusive of those dharmas". It seems to suggest the mind is a metaphysical idea. It does not mean mind comes first or mind only, but all dharmas are presented in the mind.
No. Did you stop reading there?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:58 am
This is fun. Just embrace the nihilism Queequeg.

Sure thing Thomaslaw. Dharmas are present in the mind in the form of a highly subtle and refined fluid element. All Chinese Buddhists believe this.

The citta itself is firmer, more coarse, than the dharma-fluids. They float around freely intermixing in the cave of the mind.

This is why the Buddha suggests we treat form, etc., as a lump of foam.

:rolleye:
It is better to say the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism suggest that because dharmas are present in the mind, hance form, etc., as a lump of foam. :jumping:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:48 am

Define "metaphysical". That word has tons of meanings.

I would suggest giving an example of the way in which the mind is metaphysical in Tiāntāi and not metaphysical in another teaching.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:01 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:48 am
Define "metaphysical". That word has tons of meanings.

I would suggest giving an example of the way in which the mind is metaphysical in Tiāntāi and not metaphysical in another teaching.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different. But all phenomena are present in the mind. Got it! :twothumbsup:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:24 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:48 am
Define "metaphysical". That word has tons of meanings.

I would suggest giving an example of the way in which the mind is metaphysical in Tiāntāi and not metaphysical in another teaching.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different. But all phenomena are present in the mind. Got it! :twothumbsup:
How is this metaphysical?

It seems like a bunch of directions to me.

QQ didn't mean to, but he violated the fourth line of the tetralemma, if he said that they are neither same nor different, and meant it in the sense of "something else". I doubt he meant it that way, anyways.

I can't blame him, if he did though. I violate the tetralemma on a near-constant basis. The fourth line of the tetralemma is a razor that leaves the face completely bald. And I like my beard.

QQ, does vertical here imply causal (i.e. one after the other like a series/line of vertical stacked dominos)? Does horizontal mean simultaneous, like two horizontal logs on top of one another, with any vertical bisection revealing both logs, then?

What are the axis for defining vertical/horizontal?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:45 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:24 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:48 am
Define "metaphysical". That word has tons of meanings.

I would suggest giving an example of the way in which the mind is metaphysical in Tiāntāi and not metaphysical in another teaching.
The mind is all phenomena; all phenomena are the mind. They have neither a horizontal nor a vertical relationship. They are neither the same nor different. But all phenomena are present in the mind. Got it! :twothumbsup:
How is this metaphysical?

It seems like a bunch of directions to me.

QQ didn't mean to, but he violated the fourth line of the tetralemma, if he said that they are neither same nor different, and meant it in the sense of "something else". I doubt he meant it that way, anyways.

I can't blame him, if he did though. I violate the tetralemma on a near-constant basis. The fourth line of the tetralemma is a razor that leaves the face completely bald. And I like my beard.

QQ, does vertical here imply causal (i.e. one after the other like a series/line of vertical stacked dominos)? Does horizontal mean simultaneous, like two horizontal logs on top of one another, with any vertical bisection revealing both logs, then?

What are the axis for defining vertical/horizontal?
To my knowledge, they both are merely manifestation of the mind in thought. :meditate:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:42 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:33 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:58 am
This is fun. Just embrace the nihilism Queequeg.

Sure thing Thomaslaw. Dharmas are present in the mind in the form of a highly subtle and refined fluid element. All Chinese Buddhists believe this.

The citta itself is firmer, more coarse, than the dharma-fluids. They float around freely intermixing in the cave of the mind.

This is why the Buddha suggests we treat form, etc., as a lump of foam.

:rolleye:
It is better to say the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism suggest that because dharmas are present in the mind, hance form, etc., as a lump of foam. :jumping:
What does this mean?

I'm down to play along. Mental objects are made of a fluid substance that slides through citta.

But what does the above even mean?

Mental objects are recognized by the mind? Fair enough.

When a Tiāntāi Buddhist sees a lump of foam, does he say "this is not a lump of foam?"
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:17 am

Check out this empty cake:

Image

Now check out this empty cake:

Image

What's the difference between these two empty cakes?

Some say that the self is as empty as these two cakes.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:37 am

empty =/= non-existent.

The crucial distinction that is missing in the current English lexicon is the ability to distinguish between ‘real’ and ‘existent’. This is a consequence of materialism meaning there is no provision for the idea of ‘degrees of existence’. ‘Conventionally existing things’ really do exist - but they’re not real in that they’re not ‘independently existent’. But in our world, there’s no provision for that distinction. That is behind a lot of the debates about this topic on DharmaWheel in my view.

:namaste:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:49 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:37 am
empty =/= non-existent.

The crucial distinction that is missing in the current English lexicon is the ability to distinguish between ‘real’ and ‘existent’. This is a consequence of materialism meaning there is no provision for the idea of ‘degrees of existence’. ‘Conventionally existing things’ really do exist - but they’re not real in that they’re not ‘independently existent’. But in our world, there’s no provision for that distinction. That is behind a lot of the debates about this topic on DharmaWheel in my view.

:namaste:
:good:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:24 am
QQ, does vertical here imply causal (i.e. one after the other like a series/line of vertical stacked dominos)? Does horizontal mean simultaneous, like two horizontal logs on top of one another, with any vertical bisection revealing both logs, then?

What are the axis for defining vertical/horizontal?
As I understand, when Zhiyi says vertical, he means assertions about some dharmas being more basic than others, ie. Dharmas are just Mind, Dharmas being derivative of the more fundamental Mind.

Horizontal is the present causal condition of dharmas. Basically I think he is tempering dependent origination.

What's left is the Inconceivable thusness. True Aspect. Jisso.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:08 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:24 am
QQ, does vertical here imply causal (i.e. one after the other like a series/line of vertical stacked dominos)? Does horizontal mean simultaneous, like two horizontal logs on top of one another, with any vertical bisection revealing both logs, then?

What are the axis for defining vertical/horizontal?
As I understand, when Zhiyi says vertical, he means assertions about some dharmas being more basic than others, ie. Dharmas are just Mind, Dharmas being derivative of the more fundamental Mind.

Horizontal is the present causal condition of dharmas. Basically I think he is tempering dependent origination.

What's left is the Inconceivable thusness. True Aspect. Jisso.
I see, "vertical" is more "from up, downwards", and horizontal is "altogether", with an implication of simultaneity.

Mind as progenitor and mind as co-participant.

Vertical is like svābhāvatā and horizontal is like parabhāvatā. Own-being and other-being.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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