The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

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Queequeg
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:47 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:08 pm
I see, "vertical" is more "from up, downwards", and horizontal is "altogether", with an implication of simultaneity.

Mind as progenitor and mind as co-participant.

Vertical is like svābhāvatā and horizontal is like parabhāvatā. Own-being and other-being.
I think so. If we posit Mind as the reference point, I think that is fair. We could also posit Ziporyn's Green Cup (That coffee mug is becoming a lynch pin of reality! Hope he is taking care of it.)

I'll take your word on the Sanskrit... I'm not that good with vocab. :smile:

More generally, you can see Nagarjuna's negative analysis in application as reinterpreted through the refinement of the Inclusive Three Truths.

I know this will get some groans, but I think one of Zhiyi's great accomplishments was to take the Chinese impulse for harmony and smooth transitions to Nagarjuna's terse Indian logic.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:17 pm

There's a point here about affirming and non-affirming negations.

Neither same nor other in a affirming manner IMO is a violation of the 4rd negation. A non-affirming neither same not other seems fine.

There is a whole byzantine conversation that could possibly follow. But I need to sleep. I just finished a midnight shift!

:zzz:
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:17 pm
There's a point here about affirming and non-affirming negations.

Neither same nor other in a affirming manner IMO is a violation of the 4rd negation. A non-affirming neither same not other seems fine.

There is a whole byzantine conversation that could possibly follow. But I need to sleep. I just finished a midnight shift!

:zzz:
At least as far as Zhiyi goes, he goes ahead with affirmations liberally, with a footnote. Ultimately, nothing can be said, negative or positive. Provisionally, we employ negation and affirmation as means to discuss dharma. We resort to conventions, otherwise we're all sitting around with Vimalakirti in silence.

In Makashikan, Zhiyi directly addresses the negative and positive, and explains what he is doing in each case.

Middle Way/Buddha Nature.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:49 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:42 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:33 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:58 am
This is fun. Just embrace the nihilism Queequeg.

Sure thing Thomaslaw. Dharmas are present in the mind in the form of a highly subtle and refined fluid element. All Chinese Buddhists believe this.

The citta itself is firmer, more coarse, than the dharma-fluids. They float around freely intermixing in the cave of the mind.

This is why the Buddha suggests we treat form, etc., as a lump of foam.

:rolleye:
It is better to say the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism suggest that because dharmas are present in the mind, hance form, etc., as a lump of foam. :jumping:
What does this mean?

I'm down to play along. Mental objects are made of a fluid substance that slides through citta.

But what does the above even mean?

Mental objects are recognized by the mind? Fair enough.

When a Tiāntāi Buddhist sees a lump of foam, does he say "this is not a lump of foam?"
This means a lump of foam is present in the mind in thought, based on an absolutist metaphysical twist, according to the Tiantai and Huayan schools. It does not mean 'this is not a lump of foam'. All thoughts originate from and resolve into the mind (the Buddha nature) as the ultimate metaphysical principle. :meditate:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:53 am

The cakes are present in the mind in thought. It does not mean there are no cakes! :tongue:


Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:17 am
Check out this empty cake:

Image

Now check out this empty cake:

Image

What's the difference between these two empty cakes?

Some say that the self is as empty as these two cakes.

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:15 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:08 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:24 am
QQ, does vertical here imply causal (i.e. one after the other like a series/line of vertical stacked dominos)? Does horizontal mean simultaneous, like two horizontal logs on top of one another, with any vertical bisection revealing both logs, then?

What are the axis for defining vertical/horizontal?
As I understand, when Zhiyi says vertical, he means assertions about some dharmas being more basic than others, ie. Dharmas are just Mind, Dharmas being derivative of the more fundamental Mind.

Horizontal is the present causal condition of dharmas. Basically I think he is tempering dependent origination.

What's left is the Inconceivable thusness. True Aspect. Jisso.
I see, "vertical" is more "from up, downwards", and horizontal is "altogether", with an implication of simultaneity.

Mind as progenitor and mind as co-participant.

Vertical is like svābhāvatā and horizontal is like parabhāvatā. Own-being and other-being.
To my knowledge, both vertical and horizontal dharmas are merely manifestations of the absolute mind in thought. It does not mean 'mind first' or 'mind only'.

E.g. the fish in my mind and the tree in my mind are not really different. All different dharmas, such as a 'real' fish and a 'real' tree, are but manifestations of the absolute mind, and are thus fundamentally non-different. :thumbsup:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:21 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:15 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:08 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:03 pm

As I understand, when Zhiyi says vertical, he means assertions about some dharmas being more basic than others, ie. Dharmas are just Mind, Dharmas being derivative of the more fundamental Mind.

Horizontal is the present causal condition of dharmas. Basically I think he is tempering dependent origination.

What's left is the Inconceivable thusness. True Aspect. Jisso.
I see, "vertical" is more "from up, downwards", and horizontal is "altogether", with an implication of simultaneity.

Mind as progenitor and mind as co-participant.

Vertical is like svābhāvatā and horizontal is like parabhāvatā. Own-being and other-being.
To my knowledge, both vertical and horizontal dharmas are merely manifestations of the absolute mind in thought. It does not mean 'mind first' or 'mind only'.

E.g. the fish in my mind and the tree in my mind are not really different. All different dharmas, such as a 'real' fish and a 'real' tree, are but manifestations of the absolute mind, and are thus fundamentally non-different. :thumbsup:
It's nice that you hold such views! :anjali:

Now go find that in a Tiāntāi text!
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:29 am

One sentient being, one mind, one man, to the exception of others, who dreams up solely and on his own, or thinks up, all creation, is iśvaranirmāṇadṛṣṭi, theism.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:18 pm

More importantly, think, if I and you and X and Y and this computer and your chair are all merely manifestations of the absolute mind in thought, then after we die, we will be permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable.

Or perhaps we are just that, merely temporary manifestations, like waves that rise and fall. Completely gone while the absolute mind merely manifests on.

Is this a wrong view? This is your view, so I don't want to make too many assumptions.

As for the esoterica alluded to earlier, I am reminded of śrāvaka literature, in which it is said that he who sees dependent origination sees the Buddha himself. We can choose to interpret this in two ways, a silly way, and a sublime way, IMO.

Silly: dependent origination as the workings of a great Buddha god.
Sublime: the Buddha as something revealed in penetrating and understanding dependent origination, not only in fleshly robes of historical personages.

Reminding us of the Buddha's words to Vakkali SN 22.87, once again. In turn, bringing us to "every appearance whatsoever is a deception, if you can see all appearances not as appearances, then you see the Thus-Gone."
(Vajracchedikāprajñāpāramitāsūtra T 235.749a12)

Once again, there a silly interpretation and one that is reasonable.

Silly: when you see all appearances not as appearances, the Buddha's personality and his work in causally sustaining the cosmos through his one mind that we all are, can be perceived.

Whatever the view of Tendai esoterica is I can guarantee it's not the above.

We can decide what is reasonable.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

thomaslaw
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:29 am
One sentient being, one mind, one man, to the exception of others, who dreams up solely and on his own, or thinks up, all creation, is iśvaranirmāṇadṛṣṭi, theism.
Remember that the founders of Tiantai and Huayan schools are Chinese monks who have made a Chinese Buddhism. These two home-grown schools in China thus came to embody virtually the entirety of Chinese Buddhist philosophy. :buddha1:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:54 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:18 pm
More importantly, think, if I and you and X and Y and this computer and your chair are all merely manifestations of the absolute mind in thought, then after we die, we will be permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable.

Or perhaps we are just that, merely temporary manifestations, like waves that rise and fall. Completely gone while the absolute mind merely manifests on.

Is this a wrong view? This is your view, so I don't want to make too many assumptions.

As for the esoterica alluded to earlier, I am reminded of śrāvaka literature, in which it is said that he who sees dependent origination sees the Buddha himself. We can choose to interpret this in two ways, a silly way, and a sublime way, IMO.

Silly: dependent origination as the workings of a great Buddha god.
Sublime: the Buddha as something revealed in penetrating and understanding dependent origination, not only in fleshly robes of historical personages.

Reminding us of the Buddha's words to Vakkali SN 22.87, once again. In turn, bringing us to "every appearance whatsoever is a deception, if you can see all appearances not as appearances, then you see the Thus-Gone."
(Vajracchedikāprajñāpāramitāsūtra T 235.749a12)

Once again, there a silly interpretation and one that is reasonable.

Silly: when you see all appearances not as appearances, the Buddha's personality and his work in causally sustaining the cosmos through his one mind that we all are, can be perceived.

Whatever the view of Tendai esoterica is I can guarantee it's not the above.

We can decide what is reasonable.
The origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views can also be found in the Samyukta sutra. See p. 71 in Choong Mun-keat's book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism about the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法. :sage:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:02 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:29 am
One sentient being, one mind, one man, to the exception of others, who dreams up solely and on his own, or thinks up, all creation, is iśvaranirmāṇadṛṣṭi, theism.
Remember that the founders of Tiantai and Huayan schools are Chinese monks who have made a Chinese Buddhism. These two home-grown schools in China thus came to embody virtually the entirety of Chinese Buddhist philosophy.
You need to meet your conversation partner halfway and make actual points supported by actual evidence. Otherwise this whole thread is just you saying "I think Tiantai & Huayan Buddhism are like this."
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 am
The origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views can also be found in the Samyukta sutra. See p. 71 in Choong Mun-keat's book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism about the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法.
Really? This is the page.
Screen Shot 2018-06-10 at 9.59.55 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-10 at 9.59.55 AM.png (114.2 KiB) Viewed 369 times
I see a speculative mention of possible cittamātratā influences from Dr Mun-keat.

I see no mention of anything you mentioned. No origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views. None of that.

You need to do better. Start with a text on the subject matter you are trying to talk about.

This is like me bringing up a Sarvāstivāda text as proof of the Theravādin belief in the persistence of the three times.
This is like me bringing up a quotation from the Venerable Samghabhadra to prove that Ven Buddhaghoṣa believed Sarvāstivāda doctrinal points.

Tiāntāi ≠ Yogācāra like Sarvāstivāda ≠ Theravāda.

Suffice to say, also, Venerable Guṇabhadra ≠ Venerable Zhìyǐ. I would recommend starting again.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:37 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:02 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:29 am
One sentient being, one mind, one man, to the exception of others, who dreams up solely and on his own, or thinks up, all creation, is iśvaranirmāṇadṛṣṭi, theism.
Remember that the founders of Tiantai and Huayan schools are Chinese monks who have made a Chinese Buddhism. These two home-grown schools in China thus came to embody virtually the entirety of Chinese Buddhist philosophy.
You need to meet your conversation partner halfway and make actual points supported by actual evidence. Otherwise this whole thread is just you saying "I think Tiantai & Huayan Buddhism are like this."
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:35 am
The origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views can also be found in the Samyukta sutra. See p. 71 in Choong Mun-keat's book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism about the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法.
Really? This is the page.
Screen Shot 2018-06-10 at 9.59.55 AM.png

I see a speculative mention of possible cittamātratā influences from Dr Mun-keat.

I see no mention of anything you mentioned. No origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views. None of that.

You need to do better. Start with a text on the subject matter you are trying to talk about.

This is like me bringing up a Sarvāstivāda text as proof of the Theravādin belief in the persistence of the three times.
This is like me bringing up a quotation from the Venerable Samghabhadra to prove that Ven Buddhaghoṣa believed Sarvāstivāda doctrinal points.

Tiāntāi ≠ Yogācāra like Sarvāstivāda ≠ Theravāda.

Suffice to say, also, Venerable Guṇabhadra ≠ Venerable Zhìyǐ. I would recommend starting again.
Do you mean you may need to do better, both the origin of the Chinese Tiantai, Huayan schools, and the history of Mahayana Buddhism? Good idea indeed.

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:20 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:54 am

The origin of the Mahayana Tiantai/Tendai and Huayan teachings on 'the mind' for dependent origination and esoteric views can also be found in the Samyukta sutra. See p. 71 in Choong Mun-keat's book The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism about the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法. :sage:
About the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法 in the Samyukta sutra, see also p. 105 in the book (The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism ). :buddha1:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:39 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:37 am
Do you mean you may need to do better, both the origin of the Chinese Tiantai, Huayan schools, and the history of Mahayana Buddhism? Good idea indeed.
:rolling:
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:20 am
About the teaching of 'subject to arising conditioned by mind' 心緣起法 in the Samyukta sutra, see also p. 105 in the book (The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism ).
Screen Shot 2018-06-11 at 9.38.18 AM.png
Screen Shot 2018-06-11 at 9.38.18 AM.png (479.02 KiB) Viewed 282 times
Wow. More about cittamātratā.

Hmmmmm....

It's like someone isn't getting the message. Venerable Zhìyǐ was not a Yogācārin, Thomaslaw. Like I said earlier, maybe you should consider re-starting with a text that addresses your subject material.
In Vasubandhu's theory of consciousness-only, there is only the one consciousness, but it is divided into the discriminating and the undiscriminating forms of consciousness; the discriminating consciousness is what we usually call consciousness, whereas the undiscriminating consciousness is "consciousness appearing to be an object" [sì chén shí/似塵識]. All the physical objects in the universe- vases, clothing, carts, and carriages- are all this undiscriminating form of consciousness.... But since they are all one nature, we can equally say that there are two forms of matter, the discriminating and the undiscriminating.... It is in this sense that the mind and matter are non-dual. Since he is able to say there are these two different forms of consciousness, we can equally say that they are two different forms of matter.
(四念處 T1918.573b20, a sermon spoken by Ven Zhìyǐ)

"Mind-alone" is an arbitrary point of reference. Why not "form alone"? That is as arbitrary as mind alone. In fact, many to this day and age argue that mind is a derivative of form.

In fact, doctrines of "form alone" can be thought of as, essentially, reductive physicalism.

Try again, if you are not yet tired of your thesis. You are out of references to cittamātratā in the glossary of that text by Dr. Mun-keat, though, so you will need to find a new text.

Once again, I would strongly recommend one that comments directly upon the subject matter you are trying to comment upon.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:17 am

Remember that the founders of Tiantai and Huayan schools are Chinese monks who have made a Chinese Buddhism. These two home-grown schools in China thus came to embody virtually the entirety of Chinese Buddhist philosophy.

Though no Indian counterpart of the Tiantai and Huayan schools, both Chinese schools are basically Vijñānavāda in orientation, with an absolutist metaphysical twist. :buddha1:

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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:12 am

"A fox is basically a dog." :buddha1:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:33 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:12 am
"A fox is basically a dog." :buddha1:
Indeed. At this point I see the exchange as:

"Ven Zhiyi doesn't hold cittamātra views. Here's some substantiating evidence ".

"Remember that the founders of Tiantai and Huayan schools are Chinese monks who have made a Chinese Buddhism. Chinese Buddhism is cittamātravāda because Dr Mun-keat thinks Venerable Gunabhadra was a Yogācārin."

Is this unfair?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Seishin
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Seishin » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:53 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:17 am
Though no Indian counterpart of the Tiantai and Huayan schools, both Chinese schools are basically Vijñānavāda in orientation, with an absolutist metaphysical twist. :buddha1:
Tiantai was influenced by Vijñānavāda, but was far more influenced by Madhyamaka to the point where many will say that Tiantai IS Madhyamaka, although I feel Zhiyi took Madhyamaka and tweeked it to make it uniquely 'Tiantai'. We have all presented evidence from scholars and Zhiyi's words himself that show he criticised the Yogachara view points. So far you haven't actually presented any evidence for your hypothesis other than to restate the same sentence in different ways. I'm amazed that this has gone on this far. The moderators must be very patient.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:46 am

Seishin wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:53 am
Tiantai was influenced by Vijñānavāda, but was far more influenced by Madhyamaka to the point where many will say that Tiantai IS Madhyamaka
:good:
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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