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The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am
by thomaslaw
Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am
by ItsRaining
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am
Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas
I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:03 pm
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 am
Hi Dharma friends,

Both schools TianTai and HuaYan are considered the doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism. How and why Buddhism in the Chinese traditions has grown from a purely Indian import to a distinctly 'Chinese'?

Thanks

Thomas
How and why did Buddhism in the Thai tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Thai"? How and why did Buddhism in the Burmese tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Burmese"? How and why did Buddhism in the Cambodian tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Cambodian"? How and why did Buddhism in the Sri Lankan tradition grow from a purely Indian import to distinctly "Sri Landkan"?

Classical or Literary Chinese was the Latin of East Asia. It was the language of intelligenstia, commerce, politics, & international communication in general. Most East Asian cultures, at one time or another, wrote their language in Classical/Literary Chinese characters.

For instance, today in Japan & Korea, formerly in Vietnam, the language was written in Chinese (and traditional native scripts, the Japanese being a direct adaption of the Chinese script for phonetic use). Chinese has a heavy presence on Mahāyāna forums because of this.

Relating to "doctrinal establishment", how did the "Thai" forest tradition develop? How did modern quasi-Theravādin Suttantā develop?

Tentative answer: people read/listened to Buddhavacana & their teachers, however their transmission, and understood in their ways.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am
by thomaslaw
ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am

I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.
Thanks for your response. Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:23 pm
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am
Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:
Not in Tiāntāi.

This is a quotation from a Ziporyn text, I am still looking through The Dharma Flower's Profound Meaning to find context, in the interest of cross-referencing this against the original, but in the meantime it is all you have as per a Tiāntāi responce:
When the first type of [person] hears that “all dharmas are reducible to the neither defiled nor non-defiled,” they take it to mean that all dharmāḥ are inseparable from emptiness and that even if one were to traverse the entire universe, everywhere would be the same suchness [i.e. emptiness] as that found here as the suchness of, for example, this vase.

-Ven Zhìyǐ, 法華玄義 (The Dharma Flower’s Profound Meaning), Taishō 33.703a, citing the Mahāprajñāpāramitāsūtra Scroll 6, Ch 15, v 0561b20: “故一切法趣[…]”
The emptiness of my vase is not the "same" emptiness as your foot. They aren't both "one [same] mind".

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 am
by FromTheEarth
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am
ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am

I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.
Thanks for your response. Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:
The term "一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan" indeed belongs to the Tiantai vocabulary, but it is used to describe the capacity of simultaneously having three (allegedly distinct) viewpoints of the world in one single thought/contemplation. It barely has anything to do with the ontological.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:04 am
by thomaslaw
FromTheEarth wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am
ItsRaining wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:04 am

I think it had been becoming less Indian before that. For example when Kumārajīva came and his disciples established what would be the East Asian Madhyamaka School there were already 6 different interpretations of the Prajna Paramita Sutras around. And his main disciple Sengzhao wrote about Madhyamaka using Chinese/Daoist language which Kumārajīva himself thought demonstrated a great understanding of emptiness.

And other translators like Paramantha and Bodhiruci also brought and developed different understandings of the Yogacara.
Thanks for your response. Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:
The term "一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan" indeed belongs to the Tiantai vocabulary, but it is used to describe the capacity of simultaneously having three (allegedly distinct) viewpoints of the world in one single thought/contemplation. It barely has anything to do with the ontological.
Thanks for your explanation. How about this teaching: 一念三千

It seems 'one mind' in Tiantai is an ontological idea, which is also similar to Huayan School of Chinese Buddhism.

Thomas

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:38 pm
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:04 am
FromTheEarth wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 am


Thanks for your response. Can we consider the following teachings of TianTai and HuaYan are the first truly Chinese Buddhist thought, Buddhism in the Chinese context:

一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan
一真法界 Yizhen Fajie, 一心法界 Yinxin Fajie

Phenomena are only manifestations of the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind. :meditate:
The term "一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan" indeed belongs to the Tiantai vocabulary, but it is used to describe the capacity of simultaneously having three (allegedly distinct) viewpoints of the world in one single thought/contemplation. It barely has anything to do with the ontological.
Thanks for your explanation. How about this teaching: 一念三千

It seems 'one mind' in Tiantai is an ontological idea, which is also similar to Huayan School of Chinese Buddhism.

Thomas
No, that is not quite correct. You are just saying the opposite of what FromTheEarth & I said, over and over again, without learning. Your moderated posts which were deleted quite a while ago were just more of the same.

The 一念 in 一念三千 is the practitioner's one thought.

Or perhaps, if you cannot fit 三千 into one thought, maybe two? Now you have invented 二念三千 because it took you twice as many thoughts as Ven Zhiyi.

Similarly, the 一心 in 一心三觀 is the "one mind" of the practitioner.

You don't have two minds, do you?

If you have two minds, you can invent and perform 二心三觀 with both of your minds.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:54 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:38 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:04 am
FromTheEarth wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 am


The term "一心三觀 Yixin Sanguan" indeed belongs to the Tiantai vocabulary, but it is used to describe the capacity of simultaneously having three (allegedly distinct) viewpoints of the world in one single thought/contemplation. It barely has anything to do with the ontological.
Thanks for your explanation. How about this teaching: 一念三千

It seems 'one mind' in Tiantai is an ontological idea, which is also similar to Huayan School of Chinese Buddhism.

Thomas
No, that is not quite correct. You are just saying the opposite of what FromTheEarth & I said, over and over again, without learning. Your moderated posts which were deleted quite a while ago were just more of the same.

The 一念 in 一念三千 is the practitioner's one thought.

Or perhaps, if you cannot fit 三千 into one thought, maybe two? Now you have invented 二念三千 because it took you twice as many thoughts as Ven Zhiyi.

Similarly, the 一心 in 一心三觀 is the "one mind" of the practitioner.

You don't have two minds, do you?

If you have two minds, you can invent and perform 二心三觀 with both of your minds.
Good to reading your speculation about one though 一念 and one mind 一心. Are they also Buddha nature in Tiantai and Huayan?

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:49 am
by Coëmgenu
Any one mind will have Buddha-nature. Any thought in any mind would be a thought in a mind that has Buddha-nature.

Just because two minds have identical Buddha-nature doesn't mean they are the same mind. Just like the mutual emptiness of a chair and a vase do not make them the same thing.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:18 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:49 am
Any one mind will have Buddha-nature. Any thought in any mind would be a thought in a mind that has Buddha-nature.

Just because two minds have identical Buddha-nature doesn't mean they are the same mind. Just like the mutual emptiness of a chair and a vase do not make them the same thing.
If any thought in a mind or any one mind has the same Buddha-nature, then it is a metaphysical 'only mind' for thinking and knowing all phenomena in Tiantai and Huayan Chinese Buddhism. :thinking:

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:57 am
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:18 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:49 am
Any one mind will have Buddha-nature. Any thought in any mind would be a thought in a mind that has Buddha-nature.

Just because two minds have identical Buddha-nature doesn't mean they are the same mind. Just like the mutual emptiness of a chair and a vase do not make them the same thing.
If any thought in a mind or any one mind has the same Buddha-nature, then it is a metaphysical 'only mind' for thinking and knowing all phenomena in Tiantai and Huayan Chinese Buddhism. :thinking:
You and I have the same Buddha-nature.
You and I both have one mind.

It's not the same mind. But both of us only have one.

It's easily demonstrable that we have different minds. You presumably believe that it is a Tiāntāi doctrine that all phenomena are expressions of one Buddha-mind. I do not.

Therefore we cannot be the same one mind.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:57 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:18 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:49 am
Any one mind will have Buddha-nature. Any thought in any mind would be a thought in a mind that has Buddha-nature.

Just because two minds have identical Buddha-nature doesn't mean they are the same mind. Just like the mutual emptiness of a chair and a vase do not make them the same thing.
If any thought in a mind or any one mind has the same Buddha-nature, then it is a metaphysical 'only mind' for thinking and knowing all phenomena in Tiantai and Huayan Chinese Buddhism. :thinking:
You and I have the same Buddha-nature.
You and I both have one mind.

It's not the same mind. But both of us only have one.

It's easily demonstrable that we have different minds. You presumably believe that it is a Tiāntāi doctrine that all phenomena are expressions of one Buddha-mind. I do not.

Therefore we cannot be the same one mind.
Good to reading your speculation about one mind, the same Buddha-nature, but not the same one mind/one Buddha-mind. :twothumbsup:

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:48 am
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:52 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:57 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:18 am


If any thought in a mind or any one mind has the same Buddha-nature, then it is a metaphysical 'only mind' for thinking and knowing all phenomena in Tiantai and Huayan Chinese Buddhism. :thinking:
You and I have the same Buddha-nature.
You and I both have one mind.

It's not the same mind. But both of us only have one.

It's easily demonstrable that we have different minds. You presumably believe that it is a Tiāntāi doctrine that all phenomena are expressions of one Buddha-mind. I do not.

Therefore we cannot be the same one mind.
Good to reading your speculation about one mind, the same Buddha-nature, but not the same one mind/one Buddha-mind. :twothumbsup:
I'm sorry, but you'll have to rephrase your English for me to understand you.

We both have one mind. My one mind is not your one mind. But we both only have one. It's not difficult.

Neither of us has two minds. Neither of us has 3 minds. Each of us only have one mind.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
by Coëmgenu
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:56 am
by ItsRaining
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
Where are you getting this stuff? Tiantai and Huayan do not teach an universal mind.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:26 pm
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
No you're just saying the opposite of what you are told.

At this point: prove it, instead of making up jibberish.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:27 pm
by Coëmgenu
ItsRaining wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:56 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:50 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:20 am
When you prove the existence of your second mind, then you can argue that, for you, myriad phenomena arise in two minds.
Phenomena are only manifestations of the mind, which is the one, all-encompassing, absolute mind, the Buddha-nature. It is a metaphysical or ontological thinking of the mind, according to the Chinese TianTai and HuaYan Buddhism.
Where are you getting this stuff? Tiantai and Huayan do not teach an universal mind.
He's getting it from the Mahāyānaśraddhotpādaśāstra.

Which is not a Tiāntāi text, nor has it traditionally been accepted by the Tiāntāi school in the past when it was new.

Re: The doctrinal establishment of a Chinese Buddhism: TianTai and HuaYan schoools

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:41 pm
by Coëmgenu
It's all because of that cursèd Jacqueline Stone and her terrible, horrible, no good, very bad book called Original Enlightenment in which she mangles the Mahāyānaśraddhotpādaśāstra.

Rory said something based on a passage in it. Then DGA called her out on it and said this is a terrible book (my phrasing, he said nothing of the sort). Thomaslaw picked it up and has been running with it since.