Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

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Yuren
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Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

A dispute arose in Chinese Buddhism with regard to whether insentient beings possess a Buddha nature, but the view that Buddhahood exists as a potential in all things and phenomena prevailed in China. This idea also became widespread in Japan. (See also enlightenment of plants.)
I am very interested in this teaching of "Buddha-nature of insentient beings" - my question is, is it exclusive to China (and by extension, Korea & Japan)?Is there anything close to this teaching to be found in any school of Tibetan Buddhism or in any Indian text?
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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Aryjna »

Rocks are insentient beings. It doesn't seem like the question applies at all in their case. There must be some more context on the matter.
Yuren
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:10 pm Rocks are insentient beings. It doesn't seem like the question applies at all in their case. There must be some more context on the matter.
Yes. And rocks have Buddha-nature according to that view. The view was/is not a fringe view in China.
Last edited by Yuren on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 5 times in total.
passel
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by passel »

I’d bet it would be because rocks don’t have minds. Isn’t though the buddha nature of the insentient just a function of their having the 3 marks?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Yuren
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

I just found the answer to my own question, it seems it is indeed an innovation that is uniquely Chinese, at least if we believe Robert H. Sharf:
the extension of buddha-nature to the insentient was a distinctively
Chinese innovation. It is, in short, a conveniently discrete and perhaps paradigmatic
specimen of "sinification."
Taken from: http://www.buddhism.org/?p=988
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by passel »

Academic treatments of Tung-shan/ Dongshan Liangje usually get into it; he’s usually credited w bringing that doctrine into zen
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Aryjna
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Aryjna »

In the relative a rock is a rock, it cannot attain buddhahood as a sentient being can. So perhaps rocks having buddha nature is meant in a slightly different sense.
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by passel »

To Dogen, rocks ARE the buddha nature- although that seems to be his particular enrichment of that doctrine
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Tenma »

Don't confuse Shintoism with Buddhism. While Shintoism believes that everything(your table, chair, tree, rock, mountain, robe, bucket, pot, road, etc.) has a kami(spirit/"god") and is considered alive. Abandon any old possessions, and the belief is that the spirit of this object will come back to haunt you. Shinto ideas are not to be confused with Buddhism nor Jainism where living things are alive(while Jains have plants and microscopic life added on to this category as well).
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg »

Not kami. This is a wholly different teaching that came from China. Might have been conflated in Japan later.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Yuren
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

passel wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:15 pm To Dogen, rocks ARE the buddha nature- although that seems to be his particular enrichment of that doctrine
Yeah, I love that. - But the more I research it, the more it seems that doctrine cannot be traced to the Indian roots.
Which is a big problem for those who want to LARP as orthodox (ie. completely consistent with earlier Indian Buddhism).
It seems that those views have a more Sinitic source - I am not really sure where to trace it to, but I suspect the Zhuangzi:
Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"
Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."
"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"
"It is in the ant."
"As low a thing as that?"
"It is in the panic grass."
"But that's lower still!"
"It is in the tiles and shards."
"How can it be so low?"
"It is in the piss and shit."
Yuren
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

Tenma wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:44 am Don't confuse Shintoism with Buddhism. While Shintoism believes that everything(your table, chair, tree, rock, mountain, robe, bucket, pot, road, etc.) has a kami(spirit/"god") and is considered alive. Abandon any old possessions, and the belief is that the spirit of this object will come back to haunt you. Shinto ideas are not to be confused with Buddhism nor Jainism where living things are alive(while Jains have plants and microscopic life added on to this category as well).
So are you implying this is just my "confusion" and not a big part of Chinese Buddhist history including Tiantai masters like Zhanran? Seriously?
Yuren
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren »

Yuren wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:34 am
passel wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:15 pm To Dogen, rocks ARE the buddha nature- although that seems to be his particular enrichment of that doctrine
Yeah, I love that. - But the more I research it, the more it seems that doctrine cannot be traced to the Indian roots.
Which is a big problem for those who want to LARP as orthodox (ie. completely consistent with earlier Indian Buddhism).
It seems that those views have a more Sinitic source - I am not really sure where to trace it to, but I suspect the Zhuangzi:
Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"
Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."
"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"
"It is in the ant."
"As low a thing as that?"
"It is in the panic grass."
"But that's lower still!"
"It is in the tiles and shards."
"How can it be so low?"
"It is in the piss and shit."
Actually, I was perhaps a bit too hasty when I said "cannot be traced to the Indian roots".
I'd love to be proven wrong. Here's my attempt to prove myself wrong, quoting the Nirvana Sutra:
Even though he has said that all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of the Self, it is not that
they are completely/ truly devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that
is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and
whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama] , is termed 'the Self [atman]. This
is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the
case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you
the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"
PeterC
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by PeterC »

Yuren wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:50 am Actually, I was perhaps a bit too hasty when I said "cannot be traced to the Indian roots".
I'd love to be proven wrong. Here's my attempt to prove myself wrong, quoting the Nirvana Sutra:
Even though he has said that all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of the Self, it is not that
they are completely/ truly devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that
is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and
whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama] , is termed 'the Self [atman]. This
is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the
case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you
the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"
Which part of the Nirvana sutra are you citing there - is it one of the parts that can be traced to an Indian source or a part that is believed to have been added later by a translator? (I'm not sufficiently familiar with it to know myself)
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Caoimhghín »

When Venerable Dōgen says that rocks, trees, various things, have Buddha-nature, he says it is because they are synonymous with mind. He further points out that mind is synonymous with the sentient being.

Whose mind? Surely not the rock's.

IMO

Further: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=27075

If you are interested.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
passel
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by passel »

Yeah- no Indian antecedent for that doctrine, it’s a Chinese development. So you’ll have to either abandon orthodoxy or redefine it.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
passel
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by passel »

I’m pretty sure you can find a pdf copy of an academic anthology called Zen Masters- there’s an essay on Dongshan in there that should tell you all about the development of that doctrine and give you leads to follow if you want to learn more
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Rocks are totally enlightened! 無念,無心!
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Rocks can be emanations of Buddha but rocks do not possess Buddha nature because they do not possess minds, thus they cannot be enlightened.
ItsRaining
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by ItsRaining »

Hopefully the local Tendai monastic Jikai could drop in and comment on this.
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