Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Yuren wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:57 pm
A dispute arose in Chinese Buddhism with regard to whether insentient beings possess a Buddha nature, but the view that Buddhahood exists as a potential in all things and phenomena prevailed in China. This idea also became widespread in Japan. (See also enlightenment of plants.)
I am very interested in this teaching of "Buddha-nature of insentient beings" - my question is, is it exclusive to China (and by extension, Korea & Japan)?Is there anything close to this teaching to be found in any school of Tibetan Buddhism or in any Indian text?
No. Tathāgatagarbha strictly belongs to sentient beings (sattvas) in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism.

The self the Nirvana Sūtra is referring to is the dharmakāya. The dharmakāya pervades all phenomena because it is by definition the realization of the emptiness of all phenomena. This does not mean, however, that rocks possess tathāgatagarbha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by florin » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:27 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:23 am
When Venerable Dōgen says that rocks, trees, various things, have Buddha-nature, he says it is because they are synonymous with mind. He further points out that mind is synonymous with the sentient being.

Whose mind? Surely not the rock's.

IMO

Further: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=27075

If you are interested.
I wonder if the mirror analogy, that is used sometimes, could clarify what Dogen says.

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm

The perfect-and-sudden [method of practicing cessation-and-contemplation] involves taking the true aspects [of reality] as the object from the very beginning. Whatever is made to be the object [of contemplation], it is the Middle; there is nothing that is not truly real. [When one attains the state of contemplation wherein] reality itself (dharmadhatu) is fixed as the object [of contemplation], and thoughts are integrated with reality itself,[then one realizes that] there is not a single color or scent that is not the Middle Way. It is the same for the realm of the individual, the realm of Buddhas, and the world at large. All [phenomena experienced through] the aggregates (skandha) and senses (ayatana) are thusness; therefore there is no [substantial] suffering that needs to be removed. Since ignorance (avidya) and the exhausting dust [of passionate afflictions (kleša)] are indivisible with bodhi-wisdom, there is no origin [of suffering; i.e., craving] to be severed. Since the extreme [dualities] and false [views] are [indivisible with] the Middle and what is right, there is no path to be cultivated. Since [this cyclic world of] samsara is [indivisible with] nirvana, there is no extinguishing [of craving] to be realized. Since suffering and its causes do not exist [substantially], there is no mundane world [to be transcended]; since the path and the extinction [of craving] do not exist [substantially], there is no transcendent world [to be gained]. There is purely the single true aspect [of reality-as-it-is]; there are no separate things outside this true aspect. For things in themselves (dharmata) to be quiescent is called “cessation”; to be quiescent yet ever luminous is called “contemplation.” Though earlier and later [stages] are spoken of, they are neither two nor separate. This is called perfect-and-sudden cessation-and-contemplation.
Mohezhikuan (Moho Chih-kuan), Tr. Swanson

That's probably the most famous passage from the Mohezhikuan by Zhiyi. I highlighted one phrase - "thoughts are integrated with reality itself". That, IMO, points to the insight that informs the teaching on the Buddhanature of Trees and Rocks.

One of the hallmark analytical devices in Tiantai is the radical application of mutuality. This is a passage that is quoted in Ziporyn's Evil and/as/or Good that I think illustrates it well:
In Vasubandhu's theory of consciousness-only, there is only the one consciousness, but it is divided into the discriminating and the undiscriminating forms of consciousness; the discriminating consciousness is what we usually call consciousness, whereas the undiscriminating consciousness is "consciousness appearing to be an object" (sì chén shí / 似塵識). All the physical objects in the universe- vases, clothing, carts, and carriages- are all this undiscriminating form of consciousness.... But since they are all one nature, we can equally say that there are two forms of matter, the discriminating and the undiscriminating.... It is in this sense that the mind and matter are non-dual. Since he [Ven Vasubandhu] is able to say there are these two different forms of consciousness, we can equally say that they are two different forms of matter.... In the Integrated Teaching we can also say that all things are matter only, or sound only, or scent only, or flavour only, or tactile sensation only, or consciousness only. In sum, every dharma inherently mutually possesses all the dharmāḥ comprising dharmadhātu.
Swanson and Ziporyn use different terminology, but "Perfect" and "Integrated" refer to the same thing.

What Zhiyi seems to be pointing out is that for Vasubandhu, the dharmadhatu, the phenomenal world, is a function of the Mind, and the various dharmas are actually mere aspects of the Mind. We project dharmas. Some of these projections are simply mistaken. Some of these dharmas are pure perceptions. Zhiyi does not disturb that. He goes a step further. In the Perfect/Integrated teaching, mutuality is complete (Integrated/Perfect), such that the Mind is also understood to be a function of the Dharmadhatu as well as the various discrete dharmas. Ziporyn summarizes this as Omnicentric Holism - any dharma, true or false, is the complete Dharmadhatu. Pick any dharma, and one will find that the Dharmadhatu is integrated completely.

Mind and matter are not dual, but rather mutually continuous. When we think that Mind is different than matter, its because we have a particular idea of Mind and Matter. Zhiyi is pointing out that there is a level of insight where that distinction loses meaning. Mind is matter, matter is mind. The Green Cup is a function of my mind. My mind is function of the Green Cup.

This is of course the "positive" way to discuss it. The negation is another way to discuss mind and matter, "Neither Mind nor Matter" - its a different analysis with different insights about the nature of reality. We're here dealing with the positive.

By mutual is meant that one is not before the other. (Zhiyi says they are not "vertical"). They are also infinite in their multiplicity and yet mutually arisen and so indistinguishably integrated ie. one (Zhiyi says they are not "horizontal").

When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha). The sentient being itself is recast at this level of insight as a particular vantage point on reality rather than a discrete being (I use the term "nexus" to describe it, as it can be applied equally to sentient and insentient beings). The idea of a sentient being privileges the nexus defined by the 5 aggregates as a discrete thing (horizontal distinction), and that serves as the lens through which reality is understood (vertical hierarchy). When these are flattened out, the sentient being become redefined in the context of the whole, as the whole. And this applies to every phenomena.

The contemplation of this is the Mohezhikuan. The Great Cessation and Illumination.

There are a few sutra passages that are referred to in connection with this teaching.
Chapter 1 of the Vimalakirti Sutra, the Buddha addressing Sariputra
“Śāriputra, it is through the transgressions of sentient beings that they do not see the purity of the Tathāgata’s (i.e., my) buddha land. This is not the Tathāgata’s fault! Śāriputra, this land of mine is pure, but you do not see it.”
And from the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha addressing Maitreya:
When sentient beings see themselves
Amidst a conflagration
At the end of a kalpa,
It is in fact my tranquil land,
Always full of devas and humans.
Because of the mutuality of all dharmas, all nexii are intrinsically Buddha. The reason is that the Eternal Buddha is fact and is integrated in the Dharmadhatu. When Buddha is taken as the Middle, all dharmas, all beings, being completely integrated, are Buddha. Similarly, when a hell being is taken as the Middle, all dharmas, all beings, being completely integrated, are Hell.

Rocks have Buddhanature because they are integrated with Buddha. Rocks also have hell nature because they are integrated with beings suffering in hell.

That's my stab at it. Probably wrong.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
Rocks have Buddhanature because they are integrated with Buddha. Rocks also have hell nature because they are integrated with beings suffering in hell.
I should add, Buddha has rock nature because Buddha is integrated with rock.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
The perfect-and-sudden [method of practicing cessation-and-contemplation] involves taking the true aspects [of reality] as the object
What Zhiyi seems to be pointing out is that for Vasubandhu, the dharmadhatu, the phenomenal world, is a function of the Mind, and the various dharmas are actually mere aspects of the Mind.
Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.

When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha).


Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:03 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:58 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
Rocks have Buddhanature because they are integrated with Buddha. Rocks also have hell nature because they are integrated with beings suffering in hell.
I should add, Buddha has rock nature because Buddha is integrated with rock.
Sounds cool, but no.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by kirtu » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:03 pm

Yuren wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:57 pm
A dispute arose in Chinese Buddhism with regard to whether insentient beings possess a Buddha nature, but the view that Buddhahood exists as a potential in all things and phenomena prevailed in China. This idea also became widespread in Japan. (See also enlightenment of plants.)
I am very interested in this teaching of "Buddha-nature of insentient beings" - my question is, is it exclusive to China (and by extension, Korea & Japan)?Is there anything close to this teaching to be found in any school of Tibetan Buddhism or in any Indian text?
No, it is strictly an East Asian view.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
The perfect-and-sudden [method of practicing cessation-and-contemplation] involves taking the true aspects [of reality] as the object
What Zhiyi seems to be pointing out is that for Vasubandhu, the dharmadhatu, the phenomenal world, is a function of the Mind, and the various dharmas are actually mere aspects of the Mind.
Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.

When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha).


Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.
Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Yuren » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm
Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.

When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha).


Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.
Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.
The question originally was open. The doctrine is strictly East Asian, and finds no basis in Indian Buddhism at all.

Specifically, your presentation does not add up, which is why I rebutted it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:59 pm

Yuren wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 pm
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 pm


Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.




Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.
Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.
The question originally was open. The doctrine is strictly East Asian, and finds no basis in Indian Buddhism at all.

Specifically, your presentation does not add up, which is why I rebutted it.
:smile:

You didn't actually address what I presented.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:59 pm
Yuren wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 pm
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.
Nobody and nothing attains Buddhahood on their own.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:59 pm
Yuren wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 pm
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.
Nobody and nothing attains Buddhahood on their own.
Ultimately yes; relatively, no. Relatively everyone who attains buddhahood (which is only something relative) does so based on their own effort. Ultimately, there is no buddhahood at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:23 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:53 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:10 pm


Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.
The question originally was open. The doctrine is strictly East Asian, and finds no basis in Indian Buddhism at all.

Specifically, your presentation does not add up, which is why I rebutted it.
:smile:

You didn't actually address what I presented.
I disagree. If you think I did not address your point, you should point out what point I did not address. Be concise.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:31 pm

Yuren wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 pm

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.
Right. Zhiyi might respond to the charge that buddhahood of rocks is heterodox something along these lines:

These are just dharmas to help us understand. All of them. The Relative Sublime. Upaya. The Buddha explained it in terms of one dharma (dhyana), two dharmas (samatha and vipassana), three dharmas, four..., five...

When the Buddha appeared in India, he had to work with the language and ideas current around him. As the Dharma is transmitted to people of different cultures, its expression changes. The ills of the people are different and so their cures differ.

Buddhism had to address the sensibilities of the Chinese, a culture that was already advanced and well developed when Buddhism was introduced. It had to contend with what was there, just as the Buddha had to contend with the biases of Indians.

Before we judge and condemn the cures people have developed for themselves, one might want to consider their illness first.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:23 pm
I disagree. If you think I did not address your point, you should point out what point I did not address. Be concise.
You just stated views you hold. But let's go on.

Mutuality, for one.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:48 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:31 pm

When the Buddha appeared in India, he had to work with the language and ideas current around him. As the Dharma is transmitted to people of different cultures, its expression changes. The ills of the people are different and so their cures differ.
Not really. Everyone suffers from same three afflictions.
Before we judge and condemn the cures people have developed for themselves, one might want to consider their illness first.
It is not the case that this idea of plants, etc., attaining buddhahood was universally accepted in China. It has caught the imagination of Western Academics however, which is why we are discussing it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:23 pm
I disagree. If you think I did not address your point, you should point out what point I did not address. Be concise.
You just stated views you hold. But let's go on.

Mutuality, for one.
Not so, mutuality is addressed by the container traces in the minds of sentient beings which produce the appearances of all six realms. Since we have these traces, we have mutual appearances of trees, rocks, etc., or river of pus and blood, etc., or hell guardians, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:48 pm
Not really. Everyone suffers from same three afflictions.
So as a doctor, do you prescribe the same thing to everyone who comes to you? Because, you know, its just three afflictions, really.
It is not the case that this idea of plants, etc., attaining buddhahood was universally accepted in China. It has caught the imagination of Western Academics however, which is why we are discussing it.
It was/is pretty widely accepted. Its certainly widespread in Japan.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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