Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:03 pm Yes, in fact Wonchuk does avow the authenticity of the Sanskrit copy with which he is familiar by pointing out flaws in the earlier translation at his disposal. This itself is a testimony to the fact that Wongchuk regards the text as authentic. If he did not think it authentic, he never would have bother composing a commentary. Esteemed paṇḍitas like Wongchuk don't waste their time writing commentaries on texts they regard as of questionable provenance. There is also the fact that he addresses the Heart Sūtra in his commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra when he discusses the different names used at the beginning of sūtras:
Well yes, but as I point out, Woncheuk only points out one discrepancy and it not the one's that we might expect such as the missing passage at the end of the first para or the wholly different sentence structure and wording in section VI. His only point of comparison is a missing deng = Skt ādi in one place.

BTW I don't argue that Woncheuk didn't think of the Xinjing as authentic. Clearly he did think it was authentic. However, I do argue that if he thought the Sanskrit was authentic then it is strange that he did not comment at all on the major differences. Since he is 1300 years dead we can only speculate on why. And of course this is only one small point in a much larger argument.

I do recommend taking a look at the volume edited by Robert Buswell called Chinese Buddhist Apocrypha. A recent article of considerable interest is James Benn's Another Look at the Pseudo-Śūraṃgama Sūtra. https://www.academia.edu/12082377/Anoth ... S%C5%ABtra

As I note some where in that long essay, Sengyou catalogues some 450 chao jing texts in 515 CE - about 20% of all the texts in his bibliography.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:07 pm First of all, one has to have respect for Jayarava’s commitment as an autodidact and his work ethic. Unfortunately he lacks the linguistic or research background to really be doing this work.
True. I am competent in Sanskrit, but only muddle through in Chinese. Any corrections would be gratefully received. It is a curious feature of the criticisms of my linguistic ability that no one cites a single mistake I have made. I know they are there, so why not point a few of them out?
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:07 pm He bases most of his argument on Nattier’s work, which essentially argues that the Sanskrit version contains idioms that can only be explained by back-translation from Chinese. There is extensive scholarship, though little of it in English, that rebuts this position.
This is simply not true. My 5th peer-reviewed article is about to appear in Vol 15 of the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies. I have certainly used methods developed by Nattier and extended those, including point out one or two minor mistakes, but I have made a major contribution to the study of the text in my own right. The new article that will appear this month proves that the language of composition can only have been Chinese.

And all of your other objections are just complaints without ever showing what I got wrong. I am entirely happy to be proved wrong. I am less interested in people trying to prove that I am unworthy or unqualified.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:51 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:21 pmWell, yes, but that doesn't mean we don't care where teachings come from, or that we have no criteria for deciding whether something is or isn't the dharma.
If it satisfies the Four Dharma Seals then why should I give a crap where it came from and who said/wrote it?
This is a fair point. The audience for my articles is not religious Buddhists. I don't expect religious Buddhists to be interested or to change their views. For myself I do think the Heart Sutra captures something very important about Buddhist practice - particularly in the light of Matthew Orsborn's (re)discovery of the term anupalambhayogena in the Heart Sutra. I don't think this approach is widely practised any more, but a few people I know are into it and it seems to be very useful. Most notably Anālayo's book on Compassion and Emptiness in Early Buddhism shows how it can be put into practice.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Grigoris »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:22 amThis is a fair point. The audience for my articles is not religious Buddhists. I don't expect religious Buddhists to be interested or to change their views.
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that judging a teaching on the basis of the Four Dharma Seals makes one a "religious Buddhist"?
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:26 am I don't understand your point. Are you saying that judging a teaching on the basis of the Four Dharma Seals makes one a "religious Buddhist"?
Sure. As a generalisation, the four Dharma seals are a religious teaching on metaphysics.

Of course, I don't know how you personally interpret the four propositions. You may have a way of thinking about them that is not religious - that does not treat them as metaphysical truths. It's kind of off topic though, yes?
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Grigoris »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:52 am
Grigoris wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:26 am I don't understand your point. Are you saying that judging a teaching on the basis of the Four Dharma Seals makes one a "religious Buddhist"?
Sure. As a generalisation, the four Dharma seals are a religious teaching on metaphysics.

Of course, I don't know how you personally interpret the four propositions. You may have a way of thinking about them that is not religious - that does not treat them as metaphysical truths. It's kind of off topic though, yes?
If one judges teachings on the basis of the Four Dharma Seals then it means that teachings that are not strictly Buddhist can be considered Dharma, how then does that make one a religious Buddhist?

And, no, it is not off-topic. Why? Because if it is true then it doesn't matter if the Heart Sutra is a forgery or not, because it can still be Dharma nonetheless.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by PeterC »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:18 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:07 pm First of all, one has to have respect for Jayarava’s commitment as an autodidact and his work ethic. Unfortunately he lacks the linguistic or research background to really be doing this work.
True. I am competent in Sanskrit, but only muddle through in Chinese. Any corrects would be gratefully received. It is a curious feature of the criticisms of my linguistic ability that no one cites a single mistake I have made. I know they are there, so why not point a few of them out?
Because I'm not an academic (though I am fluent in modern and classical Chinese), and you should seek that sort of advice from an academic in this field.
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:18 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:07 pm He bases most of his argument on Nattier’s work, which essentially argues that the Sanskrit version contains idioms that can only be explained by back-translation from Chinese. There is extensive scholarship, though little of it in English, that rebuts this position.
This is simply not true. My 5th peer-reviewed article is about to appear in Vol 15 of the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies. I have certainly used methods developed by Nattier and extended those, including point out one or two minor mistakes, but I have made a major contribution to the study of the text in my own right. The new article that will appear this month proves that the language of composition can only have been Chinese.
Read my statement again. Do you read Buddhist scholarship in languages other than English? Work coming from Japan and Taiwan? If not, how can you make that statement?

I repeat: I have respect for your commitment and capabilities as an autodidact. That doesn't mean that you have made major contributions to the study of this text. You have made bombastic claims about this text, but many disagree with them, myself included.
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:18 am And all of your other objections are just complaints without ever showing what I got wrong. I am entirely happy to be proved wrong. I am less interested in people trying to prove that I am unworthy or unqualified.
Again, nothing but respect for your welcoming substantive criticism. You will find various arguments on this thread offering that.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:54 am If one judges teachings on the basis of the Four Dharma Seals then it means that teachings that are not strictly Buddhist can be considered Dharma, how then does that make one a religious Buddhist?
These are religious Buddhist truth criteria. No one outside of religious Buddhists consider them to be truth criteria. It's doubtful that you could convince a non-Buddhist of their truth, especially when you unpack them.
And, no, it is not off-topic. Why? Because if it is true then it doesn't matter if the Heart Sutra is a forgery or not, because it can still be Dharma nonetheless.
This makes no sense outside of a religious Buddhist context. That is to say, only a religious Buddhist cares whether something is Dharma or not. Only a religious Buddhist would or could insist that this was on-topic in a discussion about the history of a 7th Century Chinese text.

This inability to think outside the box is pretty standard for religious people. It's an article of faith. As an axiom it determines the outcome of all deductive reasoning. That is to say, because you hold these propositions to be a priori true, every time you try to reason about something in relation to them it produces the answer that these propositions are true. Which is taken as confirmation that the propositions are true. And there is no easy way out of the loop. I've had the same conversation with Christians who believe in God or with Dualists who believe in mind/body separation.

As far as reasoning about the history of the Heart Sutra goes, which is the topic of this thread, this is miles off topic.

As a separate thread, it might be interesting for you to state the Dharma seals in your own terms (and maybe with an Indic language reference) and try to make the case that they are in fact valid truth criteria and to establish how far the domain of validity extends. But not here. I'm not that interested in Buddhist metaphysics any more - arguing with religious people is fruitless until they recognise the axiomatic nature of their articles of faith and start looking at deconstructing them.

When I do it for people they just get even more angry with me because the one thing a Buddhist hates more than change is a challenge to their views. What did Krodha call me? "Reckless and dangerous", I think it was.

But one ought to know how one's views can be refuted so as to be able to recognise the moment and stay calm and when it happens. It's like death. I certainly cultivate this attitude and have enjoyed several such deaths in recent years. Nothing like a whole new worldview to spice up one's life.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

My published Heart Sutra articles.

Attwood, Jayarava (2015). 'Heart Murmurs: Some Problems with Conze’s Prajñāpāramitāhṛdaya.' Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies. 8. 2015: 28-48.
Attwood, Jayarava. (2017). ‘Epithets of the Mantra’ in the Heart Sutra.’ Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 12, 26–57.
Attwood, Jayarava. (2017). ‘Form is (Not) Emptiness: The Enigma at the Heart of the Heart Sutra.’ Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 13, 52–80.
Attwood, Jayarava. (2018). ‘A Note on Niṣṭhānirvāṇa in the Heart Sutra.’ Journal of the Oxford Centre For Buddhist Studies, 14, 2018.
Attwood, Jayarava. (2018). 'The Buddhas of the Three Times and the Chinese Origins of the Heart Sutra.' Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies. 15: 12-30.

Note that these are peer-reviewed publications in an academic journal based at Oxford University. They passed an editor and two reviewers all of whom are professional scholars and experts in their field. Each article represents a substantial, original contribution to knowledge.

Oh and BTW there is also Attwood, Jayarava. (2013) Translation Strategies for the Cūḷa-Māluṅkya Sutta and its Chinese Counterparts. Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 5, 42-63.

My published work stands on its own merits. I'm happy to email copies to interested parties.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Grigoris »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:32 pmThese are religious Buddhist truth criteria. No one outside of religious Buddhists consider them to be truth criteria. It's doubtful that you could convince a non-Buddhist of their truth, especially when you unpack them.
No one outside of scientists believe scientific criteria of truth to be true either, does that make scientific criteria religious? Nobody outside of atheist circles believe atheist criteria to be true either, does that make atheist truth criteria religious?

You can call it a closed, or self-referential, system of criteria, but that does not necessarily make them religious. What, for example, is religious about the statement: all phenomena are compounded and thus impermanent?
This makes no sense outside of a religious Buddhist context. That is to say, only a religious Buddhist cares whether something is Dharma or not.
Actually, you will find that Buddhists are not the only one's interested in defining truth.
Only a religious Buddhist would or could insist that this was on-topic in a discussion about the history of a 7th Century Chinese text.
It comes as a surprise to you that on a Buddhist forum people apply Buddhist criteria to whether a text is valid or not? And you are not even in the "Academic Discussion" sub forum.
This inability to think outside the box is pretty standard for religious people. It's an article of faith.
Buddhism generally does not concern itself with academic historical validity, when it comes to measuring truth. You are just as guilty of thinking inside a box as the other's you accuse: a historical materialist box.
As an axiom it determines the outcome of all deductive reasoning. That is to say, because you hold these propositions to be a priori true, every time you try to reason about something in relation to them it produces the answer that these propositions are true. Which is taken as confirmation that the propositions are true. And there is no easy way out of the loop. I've had the same conversation with Christians who believe in God or with Dualists who believe in mind/body separation.
Where did I say that the Heart Sutra is NOT a forgery?
As a separate thread, it might be interesting for you to state the Dharma seals in your own terms (and maybe with an Indic language reference) and try to make the case that they are in fact valid truth criteria and to establish how far the domain of validity extends.
No, actually it would be boring as Hades to have that discussion.
But not here. I'm not that interested in Buddhist metaphysics any more - arguing with religious people is fruitless until they recognise the axiomatic nature of their articles of faith and start looking at deconstructing them.
So what are you doing on a Buddhist forum then? Running a historical materialist crusade to capture the Buddhist Jerusalem from the heathens?
When I do it for people they just get even more angry with me because the one thing a Buddhist hates more than change is a challenge to their views. What did Krodha call me? "Reckless and dangerous", I think it was.
I don't think you are "reckless and dangerous", boring and irrelevant maybe, but not reckless and dangerous.
But one ought to know how one's views can be refuted so as to be able to recognise the moment and stay calm and when it happens. It's like death. I certainly cultivate this attitude and have enjoyed several such deaths in recent years. Nothing like a whole new worldview to spice up one's life.
'ccept that I did not challenge your view (about the Heart Sutra being a forgery), I just challenged the relevancy of the view to (Buddhist) liberation. Obviously you are having a hard time coping with my view since it exists outside of your little (binary) boxes. ;)
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Malcolm »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am

BTW I don't argue that Woncheuk didn't think of the Xinjing as authentic. Clearly he did think it was authentic. However, I do argue that if he thought the Sanskrit was authentic then it is strange that he did not comment at all on the major differences. Since he is 1300 years dead we can only speculate on why. And of course this is only one small point in a much larger argument.
The point is that the fact that there was an earlier witness to a Sanskrit original, that is, an earlier translation, puts into question Nattier's idea that the Heart Sūtra was a Chinese psuedographia.

Whatever syntax issues there are with the grammar can be understood differently. For example, it could have been written down in Central Asia in an ungrammatical Sanskrit, by someone who had formal knowledge of Sanskrit, but who was not a native Indian, there are many possibilities which have not been examined.

But on the other hand, we know that Indians accepted the text as canonical by 800 with the arrival of Vimalamitra to Tibet. So, they apparently were comfortable with whatever grammatical novelties the text presented and made no mention of them in any commentary of which I aware.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Caoimhghín »

Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:02 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:27 pm How the hell does one learn Middle Chinese and not Mandarin? Furthermore and not Mandarin at all?
One teaches oneself by comparing Middle Indic and Sanskrit texts with their Middle Chinese counterparts. When I asked Anālayo about it, this was what he recommended. Mandarin is not much help in reading Middle Chinese, and perhaps even a hindrance since many words have changed their meanings.
Consider also, though, that Ven Anālayo deals generally with only the oldest stratum of Buddhist Hybrid Chinese, EBT translations that linguistically adapt the dharma in ways that don't really "catch on" in Chinese language usage.

I'll put some examples up in a second, if I have time, maybe tomorrow.

This is contrasted with the strata of Chinese language Buddhism that becomes normative over time, Mahāyāna as it is, which can be found in the translations of Venerables Kumārajīva, Paramārtha, etc.

There is a parallel body of academic work that problematizes Ven Anālayo's statements, as accurate as they can be pertaining to the language of very early Chinese Buddhist texts, and that argues that it is this later strata of Buddhist Hybrid Chinese which has a huge influence on the contemporary Chinese:

This is one such article:
http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publica ... sm2012.pdf

This is another:
https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/e ... literature
Notice this article says that "with the advent of Buddhism in China during the last century of the Han dynasty, a demotic style of writing that was closer to speech—here referred to as Vernacular Sinitic—gradually began to emerge." <-- I put the italics on the end to highlight that it is a slow process over hundreds of years.

So it is not that Ven Anālayo is wrong, but it is that his sentiments do not apply to the whole of "Buddhist Hybrid Chinese", rather they reflect his extensive engagement with a particular niche within it.

This is another article about chronological stratification of terminology used to translate Buddhist concepts:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _their_age

Returning to the influence of "Buddhist" language on modern Chinese:
http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/ ... 205066.pdf

Around page 486 in this one:
https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /9009/2902

From page 81 onwards there are further complications for your line of argumentation but this article is not really related to the above line-of-thought:
http://www.academia.edu/225330/The_Hear ... d_Kuei-chi
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:02 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:27 pmLet's just say I know from experience how to tell when someone is pretending to know more Chinese than they do.
I am genuinely interested to have mistakes pointed out. If you can point to any I would be grateful.
IMO here:
The wording used by Woncheuk is 簡 "selected, gleaned" from 諸般若 "various Prajñā(pāramitā sūtras)" (T 33.543.b.18)
I think you meant 集. I have an internal personal suspicion that you encountered the modern Chinese meaning of 簡 as "simple" and read "簡集綱要" as something like "simply gathered [the] essential outlines" and produced "gleaned", which has different connotation, one that suits your thesis, as opposed to "selected". But that is my internal biases likely.
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am I don't argue that Woncheuk didn't think of the Xinjing as authentic. Clearly he did think it was authentic. However, I do argue that if he thought the Sanskrit was authentic then it is strange that he did not comment at all on the major differences. Since he is 1300 years dead we can only speculate on why. And of course this is only one small point in a much larger argument.
But, if you don't mind me saying, it is a particular bad point in an argument that could have done without it. That lack of a commentators comments on X are not their own form of comment on X, whether from Ven Woncheuk or from you.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:04 pm
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am BTW I don't argue that Woncheuk didn't think of the Xinjing as authentic. Clearly he did think it was authentic. However, I do argue that if he thought the Sanskrit was authentic then it is strange that he did not comment at all on the major differences. Since he is 1300 years dead we can only speculate on why. And of course this is only one small point in a much larger argument.
Whatever syntax issues there are with the grammar can be understood differently. For example, it could have been written down in Central Asia in an ungrammatical Sanskrit, by someone who had formal knowledge of Sanskrit, but who was not a native Indian, there are many possibilities which have not been examined.
Don't you, Jayarava, note that the Heart Sutra contains Prākritisms such as "āryya"? IMO is obviously the Sanskrit "ārya" being influenced by the Prākrit "āyya" or some form related to that.

If the text was originally in a particularly wild Prākrit, like Gāndhārī, who knows how the grammar would have appeared?

The anomalous Sanskrit recension could be a Sanskritization of a Prākritic document.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Caoimhghín »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:22 pmIf the text was originally in a particularly wild Prākrit, like Gāndhārī, who knows how the grammar would have appeared?

The anomalous Sanskrit recension could be a Sanskritization of a Prākritic document.
This could use contextualization. If the document was of Prākritic origin, and if that Prākrit tended more towards isolating rather than inflected grammar (Gāndhārī, for instance, features this grammatical quirk, with many of the inflected endings from Sanskrit reducing to an ambiguous "e" "a" and "o", likely a schwa vowel), then if that text were Sanskritized, the grammar would seem bizarre indeed.

Like taking something in French, preserving the particularly-French isolating word order, translating the nouns and verbs to the closest Latin equivalents of that French, and then applying the proper Latin inflections (likely wrongly). The result would not look like Classical Latin.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Sentient Light »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:04 pm
Jayarava wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am

BTW I don't argue that Woncheuk didn't think of the Xinjing as authentic. Clearly he did think it was authentic. However, I do argue that if he thought the Sanskrit was authentic then it is strange that he did not comment at all on the major differences. Since he is 1300 years dead we can only speculate on why. And of course this is only one small point in a much larger argument.
The point is that the fact that there was an earlier witness to a Sanskrit original, that is, an earlier translation, puts into question Nattier's idea that the Heart Sūtra was a Chinese psuedographia.

Whatever syntax issues there are with the grammar can be understood differently. For example, it could have been written down in Central Asia in an ungrammatical Sanskrit, by someone who had formal knowledge of Sanskrit, but who was not a native Indian, there are many possibilities which have not been examined.

But on the other hand, we know that Indians accepted the text as canonical by 800 with the arrival of Vimalamitra to Tibet. So, they apparently were comfortable with whatever grammatical novelties the text presented and made no mention of them in any commentary of which I aware.
Dan Lusthaus argues pretty convincingly here that Wongchuk's commentary includes quotations from an unknown translation that allegedly predates Xuanzang's translation, which also doesn't bode well for Nattier's theory.

http://www.academia.edu/225330/The_Hear ... d_Kuei-chi
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Caoimhghín »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:38 pm Dan Lusthaus argues pretty convincingly here that Wongchuk's commentary includes quotations from an unknown translation that allegedly predates Xuanzang's translation, which also doesn't bode well for Nattier's theory.

http://www.academia.edu/225330/The_Hear ... d_Kuei-chi
From page 81 onwards. He also critiques Nattier's dismissal of the Kumarajiva-recension.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Hi Grigori,

Two quotes from your reply strike me:
Grigoris wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:38 pm You can call it a closed, or self-referential, system of criteria, but that does not necessarily make them religious. What, for example, is religious about the statement: all phenomena are compounded and thus impermanent?
It comes as a surprise to you that on a Buddhist forum people apply Buddhist criteria to whether a text is valid or not? And you are not even in the "Academic Discussion" sub forum.
In one you deny that your truth-criteria are religious, and in the other you affirm that this is a religious forum in which religious people discuss religious ideas and in particular religious truth criteria. So you know I'm right about this, but you want to fight about it anyway. It's not the answer I was looking for, but it is an answer.

You are just as guilty of thinking inside a box as the other's you accuse: a historical materialist box.
Well, one is always subject to bias, that is inevitable. But I don't think this is true of me. I'm no kind of materialist.
So what are you doing on a Buddhist forum then? Running a historical materialist crusade to capture the Buddhist Jerusalem from the heathens?
I'm a religious Buddhist, discussing my religion with other people who profess to be Buddhists. Recall that it is you that is denying that your ideas are religious in this religious forum.

I don't think you are "reckless and dangerous", boring and irrelevant maybe, but not reckless and dangerous.
And yet you devote so much time to try to prove that I am not only wrong, but a bad person for suggesting that there might be another way to look at things.
' Obviously you are having a hard time coping with my view since it exists outside of your little (binary) boxes. ;)
Not at all. I don't know what your view is because you have refused to discuss it. I asked about it because I was interested to learn more. I can hardly be threatened by such obvious insecurity. ;-)
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Grigoris »

Jayarava wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 amIn one you deny that your truth-criteria are religious, and in the other you affirm that this is a religious forum in which religious people discuss religious ideas and in particular religious truth criteria. So you know I'm right about this, but you want to fight about it anyway...
No. I am just pointing out two separate facts to you. That you happen to focus on the fact that supports your bias and overlook the fact that does not, says more about your attitude than my answer. You also totally overlooked the fact that the first sentence you quoted was a question and not a statement. ;)
Well, one is always subject to bias, that is inevitable. But I don't think this is true of me. I'm no kind of materialist.
Of course you are: a historical materialist. You are judging the validity of the Sutra in question on the basis of it's historicity, rather than on the basis of it's content re. Buddhist practice.
I'm a religious Buddhist, discussing my religion with other people who profess to be Buddhists. Recall that it is you that is denying that your ideas are religious in this religious forum.
You claim you are a religious Buddhist yet you critique religious Buddhists and bring out your one trick pony of the ahistorical (and thus invalid) nature of the Heart Sutra.
And yet you devote so much time to try to prove that I am not only wrong, but a bad person for suggesting that there might be another way to look at things.
I did not make any judgements of the wholesome or unwholesome nature of your character. Stop trying to play the victim. Stop using straw men.
'Not at all. I don't know what your view is because you have refused to discuss it. I asked about it because I was interested to learn more. I can hardly be threatened by such obvious insecurity. ;-)
And after your straw men you resort to ad homs. Again: I have no problem with the lack of historical validity of the Sutra in question because it's importance to me (and the standard of judgement of all teachings for me) has to do with the practical validity of the teaching and not when it was written. I am (and here again I am repeating myself) not arguing against the validity of your argument that the Sutra was written at a later date, it may well have been; the point is though, that I don't give a crap if it was written at a later date, since the teaching satisfies the (for me, more important) criteria of the Four Dharma Seals.

That is why, for me, your opinion is largely "boring and irrelevant".
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:38 pm Dan Lusthaus argues pretty convincingly here that Wongchuk's commentary includes quotations from an unknown translation that allegedly predates Xuanzang's translation, which also doesn't bode well for Nattier's theory.
I don't find Lusthaus convincing at all. A close reading of his argument tells us that he accepts the traditional idea of a Sanskrit original as an article of faith and that pre-determines his conclusion. Nothing he says gets to the Heart of Nattier's argument about the Heart Sutra. I'm more and more convinced that people don't actually read Nattier's article. Which is a pity as it is one of the finest examples of scholarship in Buddhism Studies ever published.

What Lusthaus says is that Woncheuk refers to a three minor differences between in T251 and other texts. Woncheuk once refers to a "梵本" which at face value must mean "Sanskrit text" and twice refers ambiguously to the "other" text (which could refer to the Chinese variant he also has to hand). This tells us that Woncheuk had a Sanskrit text in which we know for certain he noticed one minor difference. He notices that a single character, 等, is missing in T251 but the Sanskrit text has something corresponding to it, presumable ādi. A second occurrence of missing 等. And a third minor difference is noted where T251 has 遠離顛倒夢想 while the "other" text has 遠離一切顛倒夢想.

What of the major differences between T251 and the Sanskrit Heart Sutra? This is the crucial question here. If Woncheuk had a Sanskrit text that is like the present text then why has he not noticed, for example the missing section of Para 1 and the completely different sentence construction in Para 6? We just don't know. But there seem to be two possibilities:

1. Woncheuk had a very different version of the Sanskrit text that is no longer extant.
2. Woncheuk had the received Sanskrit text, but he did not think the differences merited commenting on.

Arguments from absence are notoriously weak. There is very little that is clear here. But we don't have a great deal to go on.

Neither commentary by Kuījī (T1710) nor Woncheuk (T1711) is dated. Lusthaus speculates about the dates, but he offers no evidence. So we don't know the dates and it is entirely possible that Lusthaus is correct to say that they were composed after Xuanzang's death in 664 CE. In which case the existence of a Sanskrit text has no bearing on Nattier's thesis, since it predicts the early existence of such a text. On it's own Nattier's thesis predicts that a Sanskrit existed before Xuanzang died.

In the essay that prompted this thread, I went further and examined how the Chinese bibliographers had treated the Heart Sutra. I first showed that the text which some argue was catalogued in 374 by Dao'an could not have been the Heart Sutra since it was before Kumārajīva's Large Sutra translation in 404 CE. The Heart Sutra cannot predate the text that it quotes from. Thus the first mention of the Heart Sutra in a Chinese bibliography is from 664 CE, the year of Xuanzang's death. And it is treated ambiguously - both treated as a chaojing with no translator and as a translation from Sanskrit by Xuanzang.

The situation is complicated by the Fangshan stele, which I wrote about in June of this year. The Fangshang stele is dated 13 March 661. This is before Xuanzang died, though before he completed his Prajñāpāramitā translations. And the Xinjing is clearly attributed to Xuanzang as an officially sanctioned translation in this artefact. The Chinese have known about it since at least 1958, but it has never been discussed in the secondary literature of the Heart Sutra to the best of my knowledge. So it complicates the current picture and I'm still thinking about it.

It is unequivocally true that the Xinjing is a chaojing or digest text, composed in China, probably between the years 649 and 661 CE. It is largely drawn from Kumārajīva's Large Sutra translation (T223). Or perhaps from the Upadeśa (T1509) though this issue seems unresolvable on present evidence. T251 has been lightly edited with a sprinkling of terms introduced by Xuanzang, but largely retains Kumārajīvas phrasing. There really is no doubt about this.

Also it is now unequivocally true that the Sanskrit Heart Sutra is a translation from the Chinese. Unfortunately my most recent peer-reviewed article is not quite in print - but it is all finished and signed off on. I will happily send copies to anyone who is interested as soon as possible. The abstract reads:
The phrase tryadhvavyavastithāḥ sarvabuddhāḥ “all the buddhas that appear in the three times” in the Sanskrit Heart Sutra is a hapax legomenon in Buddhist Sanskrit, but it is similar to the common Chinese idiom 三世諸佛 “buddhas of the three times”. In every case where this Chinese phrase is used in a Prajñāpāramitā text, other than the Heart Sutra, the corresponding extant Sanskrit texts have atītānāgatapratyutpannā buddhāḥ “past, future, and present buddhas” instead. Additionally, where one translator has used the phrase 三世諸佛 another frequently prefers 過去未來現在諸佛 “buddhas of the past, future, and present”, suggesting that their source texts also had this form with the three different times spelt out. The phrase tryadhvavyavastithāḥ sarvabuddhāḥ is unambiguously a Chinese idiom translated into Sanskrit in ignorance of Sanskrit Prajñāpāramitā conventions. This proves that the Heart Sutra was composed in Chinese.
I believe that when we look at the culture of 7th Century Chinese Buddhism an alternative narrative emerges. It is partly inspired by more solidly historical events a few decades later connected with the Empress Wu Zetian. We know that Empress Wu had Buddhist monks compose a sutra commentary that predicted her rise to the throne; and we know that the translator Bodhiruci inserted something similar into a sutra translation. Buddhism in Changan was highly politicised. Buddhist monasteries were extremely wealthy and influential in the politics of the day. Buddhist monks and Wu Zetian formed an alliance against the opposing factions of the aristocracy and the Confucianist bureaucracy. Wu's involvement in palace intrigues overlaps with the story of the Heart Sutra, but I cannot see any direct link between them. Still it gives us a flavour of the times.

I can see means and opportunity to create the Heart Sutra, but not the exact motive.

As now, the question of authenticity was uppermost in Buddhist minds. When modern Buddhists want to discredit me, the first thing they do is argue that I am not an authentic expert or that I am not even a Buddhist. Plus ca change. In the early Tang there were 100s of fake Buddhist sutras circulating, some composed and some compiled from quotes. Some fake sutras escaped detection and continue to be considered authentic (e.g. the Śuraṅgama Sūtra). One of the things the bibliographers did was establish clear guidelines for considering a text to be authentic. Principally, It had to be connected to India, it had to be translated by a recognised expert. Of course it had to be free of obvious heterodoxy (many fake sutras conveyed Daoist ideas) and preferably it should take the standard form beginning with evaṃ maya śrutam.... and so on.

Xuanzang is celebrated as a translator, but his translations were not celebrated. Indeed, one of the facts scholars cite when considering the Heart Sutra is that no translation of Xuanzang's ever displaced one of Kumārajīva's in Chinese Buddhism. This is why, in Chinese, we call the bodhisatva Avalokiteśvara 觀世音 or just 觀音 rather than 觀自在 as in the Heart Sutra. Chinese Buddhists considered Xuanzang's translations unappealing, turgid, and pedantic and they went on using Kumārajīva's translations. Except in the case of the Heart Sutra.

However, Xuanzang as a pilgrim with a very strong connection to India was a touchstone of authenticity. If you were faking a sutra ca 660 CE, then the obvious person to attribute it to for maximum authenticity was precisely Xuanzang. Woncheuk was every bit as good at Sanskrit and knew more about the history of Yogācāra, but he was a foreigner and he hadn't been to India. So when the two men disagreed, the Chinese simply pushed him to the margins of history and made up rude stories about him.

Someone pieced together the Heart Sutra from Kumārajīva's Large Sutra. I've identified quotes from Chapter's 3, 19, and 33. But they edited it to be more like a Xuanzang text. Someone (else?) decided that they wanted it to be thought of as a real sutra. This involved creating a Sanskrit text and attributing the translation to Xuanzang. This person must have been a monk working in the capital, possibly one of Xuanzang's inner circle. Certainly not more than a few dozen people had the necessary Sanskrit skills to do this.

They knew Sanskrit, but they did not know the Prajñāpāramitā idioms in Sanskrit. So their text was mostly readable, but it was not idiomatic. Indeed it contains some bizarre words that only make sense in the light of the Chinese text. None of the opposition to Nattier's thesis has, to my knowledge looked at the Sanskrit text of the Heart Sutra in relation to the Sanskrit text of the Large Sutra, especially in relation to the Gilgit manuscript (which has since be republished in a much easier to read format - I have transcribed the relevant passages). Everyone tries to disprove the thesis only with reference to Chinese texts. But the whole point is that the idiom of the Sanskrit Heart Sutra is not the idiom of the Prajñāpāramitā literature in Sanskrit, but the Chinese Heart Sutra is idiomatic Buddhist Chinese. It's only when you look at the four texts side by side that you can really come to grips with the subject.

Over the few decades following the death of Xuanzang, Buddhists added to the story by providing details: e.g. the Biography (or hagiography) provided a backstory in 688 CE, a translation date was suggested in 730 CE. But this fits with my conjecture better than it fits with the traditional narrative.

My conjecture is just that, a conjecture. And of course what people are referring to are my notes typed up into a coherent form, not to a published version. This is on the way and I hope to finish it by the end of 2019 - there is usually a minimum of a two year gap between an idea appearing on my blog and it finding its way into print.

There are some straightforward ways to refute my conjecture, though I may say that minor spelling mistakes or misreadings are not going to do it.

1. Produce a Sanskrit manuscript of the Heart Sutra which can be securely dated before the 7th century.
2. Produce any evidence of the existence of the Heart Sutra before the 7th Century
3. Produce evidence that securely dates Woncheuk's commentary.
4. Especially, produce evidence of the Heart Sutra in an Indian context before the 7th Century (currently there is no Indian evidence from before the 8th Century.
5. Show that the Sanskrit idioms of the Heart Sutra can be explained in terms of Sanskrit usage in India.
6. Provide credible evidence that Xuanzang knew about the Heart Sutra (sorry but his hagiography doesn't count).
7. Red Pine speculates that another Large Sutra recension existed that contained the idioms found in the Heart Sutra; produce any evidence for such a recension (presently there is none).

And I would personally welcome any of all of these. I'm not wedded to any particular outcome. I am simply trying to piece together all the evidence.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:32 am You also totally overlooked the fact that the first sentence you quoted was a question and not a statement. ;)
It's all about context. You wanted to know why I considered the four criteria to be religious. And I pointed out that you think they are too. Which does prove my point.

Of course you are: a historical materialist. You are judging the validity of the Sutra in question on the basis of it's historicity, rather than on the basis of it's content re. Buddhist practice.
What I actually said is this (the final paragraph of my essay)
In conclusion, then, the Heart Sutra is not what we were told it is, but it is exactly what we wish it to be. It is not an Indian, Sanskrit text. It is not a genuine sutra. It is a patchwork of pericopes, stitched together by a 7th Century Chinese monk. However, it does contain an accurate depiction of what we often call the farther shore, the cessation of sensory experience and cognitive experience that results in the radical reorganisation of our psyche away from self-centredness.
Are we so far down the post-truth rabbit hole that you can read this and say it means the opposite?
You claim you are a religious Buddhist yet you critique religious Buddhists and bring out your one trick pony of the ahistorical (and thus invalid) nature of the Heart Sutra.
So as a religious Buddhist I am forbidden from critiquing other Buddhists? That's hilarious! Have you read any Buddhist history at all? We Buddhists have always disagreed and often with considerable vigour. And you are happily criticising me for things I never even said, so where does that leave you?

I did not make any judgements of the wholesome or unwholesome nature of your character. Stop trying to play the victim. Stop using straw men.
I'm not sure how you misrepresenting my arguments would make me a victim. I rather think it makes you the victim of your own ego. And for you to say "stop using straw men" is ROFL.

That is why, for me, your opinion is largely "boring and irrelevant".
If you genuinely found my opinion "boring and irrelevant" you would not bother to reply and you would not need to be so cranky about it. But you do reply. It's quite clear that what I write bothers you. And this could be a good thing, if you can just bring some awareness and kindness to your reactivity.
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Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese

Post by Jayarava »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:04 pm The point is that the fact that there was an earlier witness to a Sanskrit original, that is, an earlier translation, puts into question Nattier's idea that the Heart Sūtra was a Chinese psuedographia.
Earlier than what? Remember that we have no idea when Woncheuk was writing. How do we know the Sanskrit was "original"? See that assumption alone so skews the field that it makes it impossible to think straight.
Whatever syntax issues there are with the grammar can be understood differently. For example, it could have been written down in Central Asia in an ungrammatical Sanskrit, by someone who had formal knowledge of Sanskrit, but who was not a native Indian, there are many possibilities which have not been examined.
I'm not sure that tooth-fairy agnosticism is any help to you. We can really only comment on the evidence. Speculating that there might be evidence that points in some other direction is a poor method. My narrative connects all the existing dots. If there is another way to do it I cannot see it. What I see in attempts is either that dots get left out, or that dots are simply made up to suit.

If the hypothetical Central Asian was writing in ungrammatical Sanskrit, then how did the Chinese idioms end up in the received Sanskrit text (including all the Sanskrit manuscripts from Greater India)? To the best of my knowledge the Sanskrit text is represented across Asia with more or fewer corruptions, but nothing that suggests a Central Asian intermediary. These stand out and we know how to look for them.

As I show in my latest (forthcoming) article there is an idiom that only occurs in Chinese translations embedded in the Sanskrit Heart Sutra. A Central Asian intermediate does explain this. So even if it happened, it's no help.
But on the other hand, we know that Indians accepted the text as canonical by 800 with the arrival of Vimalamitra to Tibet. So, they apparently were comfortable with whatever grammatical novelties the text presented and made no mention of them in any commentary of which I aware.
The Indians were all commenting on a different text - the extended version and from the 8th Century. All dates for such people are poorly established so have to be taken with a grain of salt. The extended been further altered to make it look like a genuine sūtra. And no they don't comment on the text, but if you look at them this goes quite deep. Most of them hardly see the text at all. Like the Chinese commentators, the Heart Sutra is just a vehicle for a sectarian exposition of Dharma. As Alex Wayman noted some decades ago, all the surviving Indian commentaries in Tibetan put their own spin on, as though they received the text but no commentarial tradition to go with it. And isn't that just what we'd expect?

And no they don't comment on the oddities. No one does until 1992. But that doesn't make them less odd. Once you see how weird the Sanskrit is you can never unsee it - but you do need to have some Sanskrit to see it.

The next article I submit will be on the mess that is section VI, where the sentence structure of the Sanskrit and Chinese are wholly different. The supposed Chinese translation is far more lucid and consistent with the ideas of Buddhism than the supposed Sanskrit "original". This is rare, if not unique.

In my other long post today I've listed some of the ways to refute the Chinese origins. But until something decisive turns up, all the evidence points this way. What's more it makes sense in the Chinese context. Whereas there is no known context in which the Sanskrit Heart Sutra borrowing from a Chinese translation of the Large Sutra makes sense.

I'm totally open to the refutation of this idea but as far as I can see there is really one version of history that makes sense of all the facts. At this point clinging to the traditional narrative is irrational. But more than this it is blocking progress in research into the Heart Sutra and its context. So much work needs to be done. My 5 articles, plus one each from Nattier and Orsborn have turned the tide, but it has also opened the door to a reconsideration of the entire tradition away from the spurious myths.

The Prajñāpāramitā tradition receives very little attention these days. This is a tragedy as it is so rich and instructive. Thankfully. Matthew Orsborn continues to work on the Prajñāpāramitā, primarily on the Chinese side, but we need editions, translations, and detailed studies of all the Sanskrit texts. Hopefully Paul Harrison's amazing work on the Diamond Sutra will surface soon in books form. We all agree that the metaphysical reading is an aberration. So is the connection with Madhyamaka IMO. Like the early Buddhists, Prajñāpāramitā is primarily an epistemological/phenomenological tradition: committed to attaining and writing about the experience of emptiness. Just as we can find in the Pāḷi Cūlasuññata Sutta (MN 121) and thus probably a conservative extension of that lineage. I'm personally interested in reviving the associated meditative traditions, and have shifted the emphasis of my practice accordingly. I particularly welcome the contribution that Anālayo makes in his book Compassion and Emptiness in Early Buddhism.

This is exciting stuff as far as I'm concerned and I'm baffled by the hostility I meet when I talk about it online. This is great news for anyone interested in awakening. Maybe the historical stuff isn't so interesting to everyone, but its an important part of the story of one of the most important strands of Buddhism that has been almost entirely forgotten and over-written by other ideas.
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