Guidance for Lay People

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Simon E.
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Re: Guidance for Lay People

Post by Simon E. » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:06 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:36 am
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:23 am
This whole line of practice is, frankly, shitty.
Asubha practice is usually not taught to the laity, partly because they rarely aim for renouncing lust.
That object happens to be another human being.
The object is one's conception of an external stimulus.
Right. Cut it up and sell as necessary. It's still objectification, whether at one level or another. It's cultivation of aversion, whether it's the being or ones idea of the being that is denigrated.

This would be a fatal critique in this day and age. Fortunately we have higher teachings that don't require such cultivation of basically wrong view as a cure for one's fault.
I simply could not agree more. If we want to damage Buddhadharma irrevocably then there is no surer way to to do than to objectify women and consign them ( and men) to social structures that are born of mechanisms of social control from bygone eras and from mores no longer tolerable to the majority.
Such structures are not Dharmic, they are the result of societies attempt to institutionalise Dharma.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Astus
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Re: Guidance for Lay People

Post by Astus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:16 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
It's cultivation of aversion, whether it's the being or ones idea of the being that is denigrated.
It is revulsion/disgust/turning away (nirveda), as contemplation of foulness (asubha) is the primary antidote for greed (raga).
Fortunately we have higher teachings that don't require such cultivation of basically wrong view as a cure for one's fault.
Meditation on impurities is a technique meant to overcome the misperception of impure things as pure that forms the basis of desire. If someone is not much affected by desire, then it is possible to skip to more subtle techniques to remove the root of lust. But there is no teaching where one can remain enjoying samsara and at the same time be free from it.

Nagarjuna wrote:

'The three poisons are not destroyed by themselves, and there is no other way to destroy them than to contemplate the inner and outer physical characteristics (ādhyātmikabāhyakāyanimitta) to which one is attached [but that are repulsive]. The three poisons are destroyed only after this contemplation. That is why the bodhisattva who wants to destroy the poison of lust (rāgaviṣa) contemplates the nine notions [so as to teach them to beings].'
(The nine notions according to the Mahāyana)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Queequeg
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Re: Guidance for Lay People

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:16 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:55 am
It's cultivation of aversion, whether it's the being or ones idea of the being that is denigrated.
It is revulsion/disgust/turning away (nirveda), as contemplation of foulness (asubha) is the primary antidote for greed (raga).
Its more than that:
Astus wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:29 pm
'The Inquiry of Ugra also says:...
seeing the foulness of his wife and with a frightened mind...
he should conceive of her as a thief, as a prisonguard, and as one of the guards of Hell.'
Its not just abandonment, its an active aversion that is counseled.

If I heard someone talking about their spouse in those terms, my question would be, "Why are you still with them? Set yourself free and set them free. There is no reason to create such a miserable domestic situation for you, your spouse, and anyone else who has to suffer the fallout of such aversion and antipathy."

Reading into it, these teachings sound like they come from a time when marriage was not voluntary or for love, but more or less transactional. Think arranged marriages where the primary aim is strategic to bring families together in business or some other material enterprise, and to ensure a new generation. In those cases, you may well have children who want to become monastics but are not permitted to do so. As a consolation, they can maintain some level of strict morality and from time to time go on retreats. In those situations women and children are from the start treated more or less as chattel, so to look on them as loathesome obstacles is just a perpetuation of the society's values.

Fortunately, we also have teachings that reject those views of women.
£$&^@ wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:06 pm
Such structures are not Dharmic, they are the result of societies attempt to institutionalise Dharma.
Well put.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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