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Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm
by AkashicBrother
Since in Mahayana there are texts like the Avatamsaka Sutra and Brahama net Sutra , why the Mahavairocana Sutra does not take part of the Mahayna canon ? In my opinion the content is very symilar to these Mahayana texts . So, what is the explanation for it not being officially endorsed ?

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:30 pm
by Matylda
AkashicBrother wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:31 pm
Since in Mahayana there are texts like the Avatamsaka Sutra and Brahama net Sutra , why the Mahavairocana Sutra does not take part of the Mahayna canon ? In my opinion the content is very symilar to these Mahayana texts . So, what is the explanation for it not being officially endorsed ?
Taisho Daizokyo contains this and many other tantras, since it has part of tantra texts included, like Hevajra which was translated in CHina earlier then Tibetan text. So it spread in the Far East long ago. Though it was not practiced, there was only transmission of the text, Chakrasavara too.. and many other tantras.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:53 pm
by AkashicBrother
And what is the explanation for it not being practiced?

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:22 am
by jmlee369
AkashicBrother wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:53 pm
And what is the explanation for it not being practiced?
It is in fact practiced extensively in the Shingon and Tendai lineages of Japan, which are considered Mahayana, are they not? The thing with tantric texts is that if the lineage of transmission and initiation is lost, it is not possible to do the practices anymore. China and Korea also had the transmission of the initiation at one point, but that was lost during times of state oppression.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:05 pm
by AkashicBrother
its just that in my view general mahayana like chan buddhism in china, it makes no sense that mahavairocana tantra is not in the canon but avatamsaka and bhrahma net sutra is. the content of mahavairocana sutra is perfectly compatible with both.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:14 pm
by Miroku
AkashicBrother wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:05 pm
its just that in my view general mahayana like chan buddhism in china, it makes no sense that mahavairocana tantra is not in the canon but avatamsaka and bhrahma net sutra is. the content of mahavairocana sutra is perfectly compatible with both.
Yes it is because it builts on them, but tantras are not general mahayana. The method is different and the view partially too.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:57 am
by jmlee369
AkashicBrother wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:05 pm
its just that in my view general mahayana like chan buddhism in china, it makes no sense that mahavairocana tantra is not in the canon but avatamsaka and bhrahma net sutra is. the content of mahavairocana sutra is perfectly compatible with both.
If you ask a Chan practitioner if the Mahavairocana Tantra is Buddhadharma, they will accept it as being so. It is an accepted part of the Chinese Buddhist canon, so I don't know where you got the idea that it's not in the canon. There are tens of thousands of sutras, no one lineage can put everything taught in all the sutras into practice.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:07 pm
by Sentient Light
jmlee369 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:57 am
AkashicBrother wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:05 pm
its just that in my view general mahayana like chan buddhism in china, it makes no sense that mahavairocana tantra is not in the canon but avatamsaka and bhrahma net sutra is. the content of mahavairocana sutra is perfectly compatible with both.
If you ask a Chan practitioner if the Mahavairocana Tantra is Buddhadharma, they will accept it as being so. It is an accepted part of the Chinese Buddhist canon, so I don't know where you got the idea that it's not in the canon. There are tens of thousands of sutras, no one lineage can put everything taught in all the sutras into practice.
To boot, the Mahavairocana Tantra had a huge impact on Chinese astrology and astronomy, so it's not like there wasn't great general impact overall.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:34 am
by AkashicBrother
jmlee369 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:57 am
AkashicBrother wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:05 pm
its just that in my view general mahayana like chan buddhism in china, it makes no sense that mahavairocana tantra is not in the canon but avatamsaka and bhrahma net sutra is. the content of mahavairocana sutra is perfectly compatible with both.
If you ask a Chan practitioner if the Mahavairocana Tantra is Buddhadharma, they will accept it as being so. It is an accepted part of the Chinese Buddhist canon, so I don't know where you got the idea that it's not in the canon. There are tens of thousands of sutras, no one lineage can put everything taught in all the sutras into practice.
Is it really part of the chinese canon ? can someone confirm that ? . i thought it was only part of tendai and shingon.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 am
by crazy-man
(i) Mahāvairocana(abhisaṃbodhivikurvitādhiṣṭānavaipulya)-(sūtra)
(ii) Rnam-par-snaṇ-mdsad chen-po mṅo-par-rdsogs-par byaṅ-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa śin-tu rgyas-pa mdo-sdeḥi dbaṅ-poḥi rgyal-po
(iii) Ta p'i lu che na ch'eng fo shen pien chia ch'ih ching (7 chüan)
大毘盧遮那成佛神變加持經
대비로차나성불신변가지경
Translation by Śubhakarasiṃha and I Hsing: 13th year of K'ai Yüan (開元), T'ang dynasty (唐) (A.D. 725) in Ta-fu-hsien Monastery (大福先寺), Tung-tu (東都).
Catalogue No: K 427. (XIII:863). (T. 848).(H. 817). (Nj. 530)
http://www.acmuller.net/descriptive_cat ... te-k0427-2
The Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutra was translated into Chinese by Subhakarasimha and I-hsing in A. D. 725 in the Ta-fu-hsien monastery at Tung-tu. Its Chinese title is: Ta-p'i-lu-che-na-ch'eng-fo shen-pien Chia-ch'ih ching. in Japanese pronunciation it reads: Daibirushana-Jobutsu-jimben-kaji-kyo (T848). This title was translated by Nanjio as "Sutra on Mahavairocana's becoming Buddha and the supernatural formula called yugandhara (? Lit. adding-holding)" (Nj 530). The terms can now be clarified with the help of the Sanskrit title preserved in the Tibetan Kanjur: becoming Buddha (jobutsu) = abhisambodhi
supernatural formula (jimben) = vikurvita yugandhara (lit. adding-holding) (kaji) = adhisthana.
The Tibetan translation was done by Silendrabodhi and Dpal-brtsegs under the title: Rnam-par-snan-mdzad-chen-po mnon-par-rdzogs-par-byan-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa- sin-tu-rgyas-pa mdo-sdehi dban-pohi rgyal-po zhes-bya-bahi chos-kyi-rnam-grans, a translation of the original Sanskrit title: Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutrendraraja nama dharma-paryaya. In the Chinese text certain passages echo the word sutrendra-raja. It is noteworthy that the Enlightenment of Vairocana is abhisambodhi with the prefix abhi-in the sense of intensifying the action implied in the basic word Bodhi. It denotes the highest enlightenment, that is, a more evolved concept of Bodhi. Abhisambodhi is specifically applied to Vairocana of the carya-tantras. He is the Abhisambodhi-Vairocana, in contradistinction to the Vajradhatu-Vairocana. The reconstruction of the Chinese Hung-kuang-hsien-yao-p'u-ti-fo as Vairocanabhisambodhi by Walter Eugene Clark (Two Lamaistic Pantheons 1937:II. 150/5M5) has to be corrected to Abhisambodhi-Vairocana. In the Sino-Japanese tradition the new tern Garbhadhatu-Vairocana was coined for him.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm
by AkashicBrother
crazy-man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 am
(i) Mahāvairocana(abhisaṃbodhivikurvitādhiṣṭānavaipulya)-(sūtra)
(ii) Rnam-par-snaṇ-mdsad chen-po mṅo-par-rdsogs-par byaṅ-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa śin-tu rgyas-pa mdo-sdeḥi dbaṅ-poḥi rgyal-po
(iii) Ta p'i lu che na ch'eng fo shen pien chia ch'ih ching (7 chüan)
大毘盧遮那成佛神變加持經
대비로차나성불신변가지경
Translation by Śubhakarasiṃha and I Hsing: 13th year of K'ai Yüan (開元), T'ang dynasty (唐) (A.D. 725) in Ta-fu-hsien Monastery (大福先寺), Tung-tu (東都).
Catalogue No: K 427. (XIII:863). (T. 848).(H. 817). (Nj. 530)
http://www.acmuller.net/descriptive_cat ... te-k0427-2
The Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutra was translated into Chinese by Subhakarasimha and I-hsing in A. D. 725 in the Ta-fu-hsien monastery at Tung-tu. Its Chinese title is: Ta-p'i-lu-che-na-ch'eng-fo shen-pien Chia-ch'ih ching. in Japanese pronunciation it reads: Daibirushana-Jobutsu-jimben-kaji-kyo (T848). This title was translated by Nanjio as "Sutra on Mahavairocana's becoming Buddha and the supernatural formula called yugandhara (? Lit. adding-holding)" (Nj 530). The terms can now be clarified with the help of the Sanskrit title preserved in the Tibetan Kanjur: becoming Buddha (jobutsu) = abhisambodhi
supernatural formula (jimben) = vikurvita yugandhara (lit. adding-holding) (kaji) = adhisthana.
The Tibetan translation was done by Silendrabodhi and Dpal-brtsegs under the title: Rnam-par-snan-mdzad-chen-po mnon-par-rdzogs-par-byan-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa- sin-tu-rgyas-pa mdo-sdehi dban-pohi rgyal-po zhes-bya-bahi chos-kyi-rnam-grans, a translation of the original Sanskrit title: Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutrendraraja nama dharma-paryaya. In the Chinese text certain passages echo the word sutrendra-raja. It is noteworthy that the Enlightenment of Vairocana is abhisambodhi with the prefix abhi-in the sense of intensifying the action implied in the basic word Bodhi. It denotes the highest enlightenment, that is, a more evolved concept of Bodhi. Abhisambodhi is specifically applied to Vairocana of the carya-tantras. He is the Abhisambodhi-Vairocana, in contradistinction to the Vajradhatu-Vairocana. The reconstruction of the Chinese Hung-kuang-hsien-yao-p'u-ti-fo as Vairocanabhisambodhi by Walter Eugene Clark (Two Lamaistic Pantheons 1937:II. 150/5M5) has to be corrected to Abhisambodhi-Vairocana. In the Sino-Japanese tradition the new tern Garbhadhatu-Vairocana was coined for him.
Yes, i know the chinese ttranslated the Mahavairocana tantra. But is it really part of the chinese canon ? even in this post there are people saying that it was only translated but is not part of the official canon.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 1:31 pm
by humble.student
AkashicBrother wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm
Yes, i know the chinese ttranslated the Mahavairocana tantra. But is it really part of the chinese canon ? even in this post there are people saying that it was only translated but is not part of the official canon.
There is no such thing as "the official canon". But if you look up the reference provided above, you will note that the sutra/tantra is part of most Chinese Buddhist canons - there are multiple versions.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am
by jmlee369
AkashicBrother wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:39 pm
crazy-man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:46 am
(i) Mahāvairocana(abhisaṃbodhivikurvitādhiṣṭānavaipulya)-(sūtra)
(ii) Rnam-par-snaṇ-mdsad chen-po mṅo-par-rdsogs-par byaṅ-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa śin-tu rgyas-pa mdo-sdeḥi dbaṅ-poḥi rgyal-po
(iii) Ta p'i lu che na ch'eng fo shen pien chia ch'ih ching (7 chüan)
大毘盧遮那成佛神變加持經
대비로차나성불신변가지경
Translation by Śubhakarasiṃha and I Hsing: 13th year of K'ai Yüan (開元), T'ang dynasty (唐) (A.D. 725) in Ta-fu-hsien Monastery (大福先寺), Tung-tu (東都).
Catalogue No: K 427. (XIII:863). (T. 848).(H. 817). (Nj. 530)
http://www.acmuller.net/descriptive_cat ... te-k0427-2
The Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutra was translated into Chinese by Subhakarasimha and I-hsing in A. D. 725 in the Ta-fu-hsien monastery at Tung-tu. Its Chinese title is: Ta-p'i-lu-che-na-ch'eng-fo shen-pien Chia-ch'ih ching. in Japanese pronunciation it reads: Daibirushana-Jobutsu-jimben-kaji-kyo (T848). This title was translated by Nanjio as "Sutra on Mahavairocana's becoming Buddha and the supernatural formula called yugandhara (? Lit. adding-holding)" (Nj 530). The terms can now be clarified with the help of the Sanskrit title preserved in the Tibetan Kanjur: becoming Buddha (jobutsu) = abhisambodhi
supernatural formula (jimben) = vikurvita yugandhara (lit. adding-holding) (kaji) = adhisthana.
The Tibetan translation was done by Silendrabodhi and Dpal-brtsegs under the title: Rnam-par-snan-mdzad-chen-po mnon-par-rdzogs-par-byan-chub-pa rnam-par-sprul-pa byin-gyis-rlob-pa- sin-tu-rgyas-pa mdo-sdehi dban-pohi rgyal-po zhes-bya-bahi chos-kyi-rnam-grans, a translation of the original Sanskrit title: Mahavairocan-abhisambodhi-vikurvit-adhisthana-vaipulya-sutrendraraja nama dharma-paryaya. In the Chinese text certain passages echo the word sutrendra-raja. It is noteworthy that the Enlightenment of Vairocana is abhisambodhi with the prefix abhi-in the sense of intensifying the action implied in the basic word Bodhi. It denotes the highest enlightenment, that is, a more evolved concept of Bodhi. Abhisambodhi is specifically applied to Vairocana of the carya-tantras. He is the Abhisambodhi-Vairocana, in contradistinction to the Vajradhatu-Vairocana. The reconstruction of the Chinese Hung-kuang-hsien-yao-p'u-ti-fo as Vairocanabhisambodhi by Walter Eugene Clark (Two Lamaistic Pantheons 1937:II. 150/5M5) has to be corrected to Abhisambodhi-Vairocana. In the Sino-Japanese tradition the new tern Garbhadhatu-Vairocana was coined for him.
Yes, i know the chinese ttranslated the Mahavairocana tantra. But is it really part of the chinese canon ? even in this post there are people saying that it was only translated but is not part of the official canon.
The oldest, complete Tripitaka in Chinese that we still have access to is the Tripitaka Koreana. It is based on the no longer extant Northern Song and Khitan Tripitakas. You can look it up in this catalogue of the canon, where it is sutra no. 427. Where in the post does it say that it was not part of the official canon?

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:00 am
by AkashicBrother
jmlee369 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am
The oldest, complete Tripitaka in Chinese that we still have access to is the Tripitaka Koreana. It is based on the no longer extant Northern Song and Khitan Tripitakas. You can look it up in this catalogue of the canon, where it is sutra no. 427. Where in the post does it say that it was not part of the official canon?
You said that only tendai and shingon have the mahavairocana tantra.. but people in this post are now saying chinese buddhism and general mahayana also have the text as part of their religious canon.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:39 am
by ItsRaining
jmlee369 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am
The oldest, complete Tripitaka in Chinese that we still have access to is the Tripitaka Koreana. It is based on the no longer extant Northern Song and Khitan Tripitakas. You can look it up in this catalogue of the canon, where it is sutra no. 427. Where in the post does it say that it was not part of the official canon?
AkashicBrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:00 am
You said that only tendai and shingon have the mahavairocana tantra.. but people in this post are now saying chinese buddhism and general mahayana also have the text as part of their religious canon.
Only Tendai and Shingon have transmission for the Mahavairocana Tantra, they use the Chinese Canon like every other East Asian school.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:06 am
by AkashicBrother
And does Chinese Buddhism and general Mahayana have the Mahavairocana tantra or not ? there are people in this post claiming they have and others claiming they don't. I know that tibetan buddhism also has it. What I'm asking is, if the general mahayana schools do as well?

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:17 am
by Wayfarer
Mod Note: Mods have tidied up several inaccurately attributed quotations to restore the posting order, please exercise care in quoting other posts. Please carry on.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:02 am
by jmlee369
AkashicBrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:00 am
jmlee369 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am
The oldest, complete Tripitaka in Chinese that we still have access to is the Tripitaka Koreana. It is based on the no longer extant Northern Song and Khitan Tripitakas. You can look it up in this catalogue of the canon, where it is sutra no. 427. Where in the post does it say that it was not part of the official canon?
You said that only tendai and shingon have the mahavairocana tantra.. but people in this post are now saying chinese buddhism and general mahayana also have the text as part of their religious canon.
Do you understand what it means for something to be part of the canon, and what it means to have the transmission lineage of initiation and practice?There is a difference between accepting a text as part of the canon and having the transmission of the initiation. A Chinese Buddhist would accept that the Mahavairocana Tantra was taught by the Buddha and accept it as a Buddhist sutra, accept it as part of the canon. But the Chinese Buddhist does not have the practice lineage of the tantra, so they can't do the practices found in the Mahavairocana tantra, or give the Mahavairocana initiation. But they still accept it as part of the canon.

Your question is kind of like saying "why don't laypeople accept the monk's vows (vinaya) as part of the canon?" All laypeople think that the Buddha taught the monk's vows (vinaya) and accept it as part of the canon, but the laypeople cannot practice the the vows and do not study them. Just because some Buddhists (laypeople) don't practice or study the monk's vows, doesn't mean it's not part of their canon.

Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:36 am
by crazy-man
ItsRaining wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:39 am
jmlee369 wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:29 am
The oldest, complete Tripitaka in Chinese that we still have access to is the Tripitaka Koreana. It is based on the no longer extant Northern Song and Khitan Tripitakas. You can look it up in this catalogue of the canon, where it is sutra no. 427. Where in the post does it say that it was not part of the official canon?
AkashicBrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 12:00 am
You said that only tendai and shingon have the mahavairocana tantra.. but people in this post are now saying chinese buddhism and general mahayana also have the text as part of their religious canon.
Only Tendai and Shingon have transmission for the Mahavairocana Tantra, they use the Chinese Canon like every other East Asian school.
That is not correct. The transmission exist in the tibetan traditions, too. For example, Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso confer the Vairocana-abhisambodhi Initiation (namnang ngoenjang wang) at Koyasan Monastery. on April 14, 2014


Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:17 pm
by Matylda
AkashicBrother wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:53 pm
And what is the explanation for it not being practiced?
there was transmission of the texts but no explanaition to practice, or if it was it got lost entirely in E Asia, like Japan or China and Korea. Though Chinese version was shortened by the emperor himslef for too controversial passages in the Hevajra. Anyway there is text there is no lineage of practice, frankly I have no clue why :D