Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

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jikai
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by jikai » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:31 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:52 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:58 pm
jikai wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:02 pm
To confirm, I don't read Tibetan so I can't confirm it's the same as the Chinese. However, there is quite a lot of scholarship that suggests this. I have spoken to people who can read Tibetan and Chinese, and they largely agree it is Kuiji's text, not a Sinhalese work. Even if we don't accept that the evidence for the text being Kuiji's is conclusive, the fact that it is a translation from Chinese, and that even if it isn't a chinese text originally, Sinhalese doesn't necessarily equal Indian.
The colophon of the Tibetan is pretty clear, the commentary was written by a Sinhalese ācārya named Prthivibandhu, but this does not a) bar him from having written the commentary in China, b) does not bar him from having been a student of Xuanzang, and c) does not bar him from being privy to debates about Mahāyāna sūtras and their Indian interpretation because a) being Sinhalese does not bar one from traveling to India or China and b) does not bar one from having a Chinese Buddhist teacher.
Indeed. To add to this, if anyone is further interested, you can find substantiations for many Mahāyāna sūtras that were retrieved from Sri Lanka before Abhayagirivihāra fell out of favour.

Similarly, we have the EA (Ekottarāgama), from Sri Lanka, retrieved by the Venerable Fǎxiǎn some time during the 400s. EA is a particularly interesting collection for those interested in the textual history of Mahāyāna sūtras on account of the intermixed (and likely very early) outrightly Mahāyāna sections in what would otherwise be considered, uncontroversially, an 'ETB' (Early Buddhist Text).
Yes, this is true. To be clear, I am not denigrating Sinhalese texts in the slightest.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:19 pm

Reflecting on this thread.

So, on one hand, we should read sutra in light of certain commentaries, because, regardless of when those commentaries were composed, they reflect the definitive meaning of the sutra. Other commentaries, however, do not reflect a definitive meaning of sutra, because... of the time and place of their composition and their authorship. We ought not, however, question the commentaries that are considered definitive based on the time and place of their composition and their authorship. To do so is to introduce corrupting, non-Buddhist analysis.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:40 pm

The identification of Prthivibandhu with Kuiji -

Looking up Kuiji, I am finding that he was born in Chang'an. This does not mean he was ethnically Chinese, but, given his importance in Chinese Buddhism, would the compilers of the histories gotten this wrong?

If the Chinese and Tibetan texts can be identified with each other, whether the latter is an earlier version or an incomplete version, then why should we accept the assertion in colophon to the Tibetan version over the Chinese records regarding Kuiji?
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by illarraza » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:05 pm

Minobu wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:30 pm
illarraza wrote: Stace: The Sutra begins, “Thus I Have Heard”. Ananda, the Buddhas attendant recalling verbally, (orally) what the Buddha said. How and why would the Buddha then instruct the “hearers” of this sutra to READ and; WRITE it?

Mark: Why would anyone believe that such capable monks who could memorize thousands of lines of oral texts were incapable of keeping secret a teaching meant for a later time? These were highly disciplined men, unlike our present day politicians and heads of state who have successfully kept secrets [documents] for hundreds or even thousands of years. This is hardly an anomally but rather a misunderstanding of the greatness of the Buddha and his followers.


Mark
Keeping in mind those that put the Teachings to written word were more than likely highly developed Bodhisattvas with the high level Bhumi status thingy.
The Harvest was at it's peak and the people around this time were the cream of the crop followers of the Actual Buddha Sakyamuni and probably even were able recall being their a few hundred years previous..
ok speculation...maybe someone could prove it ..
Good point Minobu!

Mark

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
This analysis can certainly be applied. What is poignant is that Shakyamuni's Pure Land is the Saha World. Ordinary beings see it aflame, but is actually tranquil.
But is akaniṣṭha, the Pure Land of Mahāvairocana, not also understood in exactly the same way?
.
Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha is outside of the three realms completely. It can only be accessed by bodhisattvas of the eighth bhumi and beyond.
If you will forgive me more questions, how is the above this contextualized in light of us being considered 'in the body' of Vairocana in some Buddhist discourses I am poorly exposed to? Is his body different than his Pure Land?

Having only bodhisattvāḥ of X attainment be able to see the "Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha-ness" of Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha makes sense, having it outside and apart from the three realms seems contrary to the entire framework of Tiāntāi, possibly Madhyamaka? Then again, these are only my own understandings likely producing these dissonances.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:40 pm
The identification of Prthivibandhu with Kuiji -

Looking up Kuiji, I am finding that he was born in Chang'an. This does not mean he was ethnically Chinese, but, given his importance in Chinese Buddhism, would the compilers of the histories gotten this wrong?

If the Chinese and Tibetan texts can be identified with each other, whether the latter is an earlier version or an incomplete version, then why should we accept the assertion in colophon to the Tibetan version over the Chinese records regarding Kuiji?
Not a question I can answer. I know what the Tibetan colophon says and I see no reason to dispute it.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:25 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: But is akaniṣṭha, the Pure Land of Mahāvairocana, not also understood in exactly the same way?
.
Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha is outside of the three realms completely. It can only be accessed by bodhisattvas of the eighth bhumi and beyond.
If you will forgive me more questions, how is the above this contextualized in light of us being considered 'in the body' of Vairocana in some Buddhist discourses I am poorly exposed to? Is his body different than his Pure Land?

Having only bodhisattvāḥ of X attainment be able to see the "Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha-ness" of Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha makes sense, having it outside and apart from the three realms seems contrary to the entire framework of Tiāntāi, possibly Madhyamaka? Then again, these are only my own understandings likely producing these dissonances.
Sukhavati is also outside the three realms.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:25 pm


Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha is outside of the three realms completely. It can only be accessed by bodhisattvas of the eighth bhumi and beyond.
If you will forgive me more questions, how is the above this contextualized in light of us being considered 'in the body' of Vairocana in some Buddhist discourses I am poorly exposed to? Is his body different than his Pure Land?

Having only bodhisattvāḥ of X attainment be able to see the "Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha-ness" of Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha makes sense, having it outside and apart from the three realms seems contrary to the entire framework of Tiāntāi, possibly Madhyamaka? Then again, these are only my own understandings likely producing these dissonances.
Sukhavati is also outside the three realms.
Hmmm. I am thinking of "the three realms" in a different way then. I will return a reform my question better, from a more informed perspective as to what I mean.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm


If you will forgive me more questions, how is the above this contextualized in light of us being considered 'in the body' of Vairocana in some Buddhist discourses I am poorly exposed to? Is his body different than his Pure Land?

Having only bodhisattvāḥ of X attainment be able to see the "Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha-ness" of Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha makes sense, having it outside and apart from the three realms seems contrary to the entire framework of Tiāntāi, possibly Madhyamaka? Then again, these are only my own understandings likely producing these dissonances.
Sukhavati is also outside the three realms.
Hmmm. I am thinking of "the three realms" in a different way then. I will return a reform my question better, from a more informed perspective as to what I mean.
The three realms are the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm. They are all places of afflictive rebirth.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:35 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm


Sukhavati is also outside the three realms.
Hmmm. I am thinking of "the three realms" in a different way then. I will return a reform my question better, from a more informed perspective as to what I mean.
The three realms are the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm. They are all places of afflictive rebirth.
Indeed, I am confusing the 3 realms with the 10 realms. Different conceptions for different purposes, I suppose.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by narhwal90 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:59 pm

There may be several disjoint "3 Realms"- Tientai ichinen-sanzen proposes the 3 Realms of Existence;

The five components, a living being as their temporary combination, and that being’s environment all manifest the same one of the Ten Worlds at any given point in time.

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/165

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:25 pm


Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha is outside of the three realms completely. It can only be accessed by bodhisattvas of the eighth bhumi and beyond.
If you will forgive me more questions, how is the above this contextualized in light of us being considered 'in the body' of Vairocana in some Buddhist discourses I am poorly exposed to? Is his body different than his Pure Land?

Having only bodhisattvāḥ of X attainment be able to see the "Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha-ness" of Akaniṣṭha Gandavyuha makes sense, having it outside and apart from the three realms seems contrary to the entire framework of Tiāntāi, possibly Madhyamaka? Then again, these are only my own understandings likely producing these dissonances.
Sukhavati is also outside the three realms.
can one experience any form of ignorance or anger or hatred once one is automatically sent there after death, through Dzogchen?

If you practice Dzogchen it promises Sukhavati at death ...even if those people are no further towards enlightenment ..mired in the afflictions of this realm and being only human...
do those afflictions somehow disappear? at death a totally ignorant fellow and bingo all gone ...

i ask this for i always thought to go to a pure land one really needs to be a being way up the scale of bhumis or what ever that scale is.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:07 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:59 pm
There may be several disjoint "3 Realms"- Tientai ichinen-sanzen proposes the 3 Realms of Existence;

The five components, a living being as their temporary combination, and that being’s environment all manifest the same one of the Ten Worlds at any given point in time.

http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/165
I am referring to the traidhātuka of classical Indian cosmology
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm

from
Letter to the Priests of Seicho-ji
The Lotus Sutra is none other than the scripture that reveals that Shakyamuni became a Buddha numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago.
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
which is the point.
All this talk of Eternal Buddha is up to speculation.

the Eternal Buddha is none other than MyoHo RenGe Kyo , which is not a Kaya bodied Buddha as the Primordial Buddha talk would have you think.

my take on it anyway.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:51 pm

These are conventions. You can read it any way you want. And then there is what is meant by those words.


Once the practitioner embraces this perfectly endowed wonderful precept, he cannot break it, even if he should try. It is therefore called the precept of the diamond chalice. Only by observing this wonderful precept have the Buddhas of the three existences become Buddhas endowed with the three bodies—the Dharma body, the reward body, and the manifested body, which are each without beginning or end.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
The idea that Buddha first attained awakening under the Bodhitree is a Hinayāna idea. It is not shared by any Mahāyāna school. All Mahāyāna schools understand the Buddha attained buddhahood infinite eons ego.
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
The idea that Buddha first attained awakening under the Bodhitree is a Hinayāna idea. It is not shared by any Mahāyāna school. All Mahāyāna schools understand the Buddha attained buddhahood infinite eons ego.
If the "Buddhahood" that the Buddha is speaking about in the Lifespan chapter is his Buddha-nature, that is to say, "Big Picture Buddhahood", then he never acquired Buddhahood. I suspect that it why the 16th chapter 'technically' states that the Buddha attained enlightenment 'forever ago' or 'an unknowable time' ago. Because he was always the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things. From that same certain way, no one has ever "been enlightened", how could the Buddha have been? Just like we are currently the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:59 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
The idea that Buddha first attained awakening under the Bodhitree is a Hinayāna idea. It is not shared by any Mahāyāna school. All Mahāyāna schools understand the Buddha attained buddhahood infinite eons ego.
If the "Buddhahood" that the Buddha is speaking about in the Lifespan chapter is his Buddha-nature, that is to say, "Big Picture Buddhahood", then he never acquired Buddhahood. I suspect that it why the 16th chapter 'technically' states that the Buddha attained enlightenment 'forever ago' or 'an unknowable time' ago. Because he was always the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things. From that same certain way, no one has ever "been enlightened", how could the Buddha have been? Just like we are currently the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things.
the time described in the Lotus sutra is finite...mind boggling long...but if you read it through and through you can come to a point in time....for me it is but two blinks of the eye and a long sneeze in time ....

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
The idea that Buddha first attained awakening under the Bodhitree is a Hinayāna idea. It is not shared by any Mahāyāna school. All Mahāyāna schools understand the Buddha attained buddhahood infinite eons ego.
Yeah we get that.
the point is this that i grapple with..i say grapple for i realize i might be wrong , and i realize others too might be wrong...so we talk about it.
thanks for entering into this ..maybe you can help...

I was taught this in the gakki , the org i first practiced Buddhism with but not the first meditation and other studies.
They said as you just said Buddha attained enlightenment a long time ago..The Lotus sutra tells of it in such a manner you get jolted into realizing how long not just Buddha first attained enlightenment...but how long this whole thing really is...

then Gakki taught that Nichiren was like the Primordial buddha come to give us this practice. they called Him the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo , or the time of beginningless time...the Buddha ..the first buddha...

I learned this was a Nichiren ShoShu teaching which was fabricated centuries after My Master's death. It is not held in other Nichiren sects, He is a Bodhisattva.

Once entering Tibetan Buddhism the whole Primordial thing arose , The Rinpoche i studied under said the verdict is still out ..debate will go on forever for it was so long ago no one remembers .

I can't see a Primordial Kaya bodied Buddha ..for one has to be by definition a common mortal like Lord Shakyamuni talked about His past as a bodhisattva and stuff..before his awakening infinite kalpas X infinite kalpas ad infinitum ...but though long ago ...a couple of blinks of the eye and a long sneeze worth of time , that comes to a point, of just a guy wanting to embark on the path....Lord Buddha was once a common mortal like all buddhas....

So I say what ever MyoHo Renge Kyo means ....is the Primordial Buddha , for lack of words to describe that which only Buddhas can share in. And by which we get to attain Buddhahood , for lack of words...by/with/through/as.....

it's all words and pointing to...but when you say Primordial Buddha ,a triple Kayaed bodied Being...it defies definition of an awakened being...
the awakened being is awakened to MyoHo RenGe Kyo....what ever that means.... Becomes a Buddha ...or attains Buddhahood..unlike the concept of what a Primordial Buddha is , if you look at the primordial Buddha as a full blown triple bodied Buddha

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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:03 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:20 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:16 pm
this is a finite number. It shows He did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
The idea that Buddha first attained awakening under the Bodhitree is a Hinayāna idea. It is not shared by any Mahāyāna school. All Mahāyāna schools understand the Buddha attained buddhahood infinite eons ego.
If the "Buddhahood" that the Buddha is speaking about in the Lifespan chapter is his Buddha-nature, that is to say, "Big Picture Buddhahood", then he never acquired Buddhahood. I suspect that it why the 16th chapter 'technically' states that the Buddha attained enlightenment 'forever ago' or 'an unknowable time' ago. Because he was always the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things. From that same certain way, no one has ever "been enlightened", how could the Buddha have been? Just like we are currently the Buddha, from a certain way of looking at things.
we are the Buddha for we are made from the same stuff...awakened is a whole other ball game though...
it's like we have cataracts on from birth and someone takes em off and voila...wow....
so the Primordial Buddha is the stuff of Buddhas ...not "A" Buddha...

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