Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Another interesting point is the practice of visualization that is presented in some Nichiren lineages, like Kempon Hokke. They use a method to "attend" the ceremony in the air by visualizing it, you actually construct a mandala by placing the Lokapalas, Wisdom Kings and finally the two Buddhas Prabhutaratna and Shakyamuni, then you receive the Dharma transmission from them in the form of the Daimoku. This looks pretty much like any Guru Yoga and front generation practice!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:11 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:10 pm Nichiren was not particularly unique in understanding the world as mandala in Japan - Alan Grapard has written about this trend, calling it "Mandalization of Geography" or something like that. Nichiren took it to another level, though, completely absorbing everything, including politics, into the Mandala of the Lotus Sutra. The sufferings and tribulations, including political intrigues and domestic relationships, are all within this Mandala. I realize this is fundamentally a Mahayana view, but I think mainstream Mahayana doesn't take this as far. There is still that distinction between the Sangha and society at large. It required the influence of vajrayana to bring it to the level that Nichiren took it.
Interesting answer!
It seems like a trend to ascribe the character of a mandala to many places in Japan, like Kumano, Dewa Sanzan etc. Even back in China, with the Bodhimanda of the four Bodhisattvas etc.
Most definitely. One of the hot topics at AAS . My wife just got a job because of her work related to Japanese Sacred Spaces. Its everywhere in Japan. Koya is laid out like a giant mandala. Hiei is understood as a giant mandala.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:16 pm Another interesting point is the practice of visualization that is presented in some Nichiren lineages, like Kempon Hokke. They use a method to "attend" the ceremony in the air by visualizing it, you actually construct a mandala by placing the Lokapalas, Wisdom Kings and finally the two Buddhas Prabhutaratna and Shakyamuni, then you receive the Dharma transmission from them in the form of the Daimoku. This looks pretty much like any Guru Yoga and front generation practice!
Yep. Look at the Three Great Secret Laws - the Gohonzon, the Daimoku, and the Kaidan. It most definitely seems that is what Nichiren intended. The Gohonzon is the Tutelary Deity, the Daimoku is the teaching/wisdom, and the Kaidan is the platform on which one receives the teaching.

I see from your avatar you have some familiarity with Lotus Esotericism.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:32 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:16 pm Another interesting point is the practice of visualization that is presented in some Nichiren lineages, like Kempon Hokke. They use a method to "attend" the ceremony in the air by visualizing it, you actually construct a mandala by placing the Lokapalas, Wisdom Kings and finally the two Buddhas Prabhutaratna and Shakyamuni, then you receive the Dharma transmission from them in the form of the Daimoku. This looks pretty much like any Guru Yoga and front generation practice!
Yep. Look at the Three Great Secret Laws - the Gohonzon, the Daimoku, and the Kaidan. It most definitely seems that is what Nichiren intended. The Gohonzon is the Tutelary Deity, the Daimoku is the teaching/wisdom, and the Kaidan is the platform on which one receives the teaching.

I see from your avatar you have some familiarity with Lotus Esotericism.
This is a Hokke Mandara!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:39 pm "Buddhahood in this body" is a Mantrayāna slogan introduced to Japan by Kukai. The very notion of it is grounded in Mantrayāna. It is not a common Mahāyāna idea. The common Mahāyāna idea is the very opposite.
Because the image of Japanese Buddhism in the West is arguably most informed by Zen, it seems many don't realize how deeply vajrayana penetrated and embedded into Japanese Buddhism and culture. This is not a comment directed at you, just in general.

Can you explain, briefly, what is meant by "Buddhahood in this body" and how this differs from the Mahayana view?
The point of view on the relationship of Sūtra and Mantrayāna in Tendai is a little similar to the Gelugpa school in that both schools subordinate Vajrayāna practices to a sūtrayāna view. Needless to say, there is much dissent from this perspective both in Japan and Tibet.
Hm. Never thought of it that way. That is an interesting way to see it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 pm
Can you explain, briefly, what is meant by "Buddhahood in this body" and how this differs from the Mahayana view?
General Mahāyāna view holds that one needs to traverse the path for 3 incalculable eons. There is no "buddhahood in this body" doctrine in sūtra, any sūtra.
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:13 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 pm
Can you explain, briefly, what is meant by "Buddhahood in this body" and how this differs from the Mahayana view?
General Mahāyāna view holds that one needs to traverse the path for 3 incalculable eons. There is no "buddhahood in this body" doctrine in sūtra, any sūtra.
I get that. What I am asking is more substantive. What does it mean to attain "Buddhahood in this body"?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:13 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 pm
Can you explain, briefly, what is meant by "Buddhahood in this body" and how this differs from the Mahayana view?
General Mahāyāna view holds that one needs to traverse the path for 3 incalculable eons. There is no "buddhahood in this body" doctrine in sūtra, any sūtra.
I get that. What I am asking is more substantive. What does it mean to attain "Buddhahood in this body"?
It means in this body one transcends the all the paths and stages.
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:39 pm "Buddhahood in this body" is a Mantrayāna slogan introduced to Japan by Kukai. The very notion of it is grounded in Mantrayāna. It is not a common Mahāyāna idea. The common Mahāyāna idea is the very opposite.
Because the image of Japanese Buddhism in the West is arguably most informed by Zen, it seems many don't realize how deeply vajrayana penetrated and embedded into Japanese Buddhism and culture. This is not a comment directed at you, just in general.

Can you explain, briefly, what is meant by "Buddhahood in this body" and how this differs from the Mahayana view?
The point of view on the relationship of Sūtra and Mantrayāna in Tendai is a little similar to the Gelugpa school in that both schools subordinate Vajrayāna practices to a sūtrayāna view. Needless to say, there is much dissent from this perspective both in Japan and Tibet.
Hm. Never thought of it that way. That is an interesting way to see it.
Rev. Meido once commented in another thread how about some Zen students have gone to esoteric centers in order to receive esoteric transmission. It seems many Rinzai lineages employ esoteric elements in their practice. When we talk about "zen" in a western perspective, we are talking mostly about Soto Orthodoxy and its emphasis on Shikantaza.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:43 pm It means in this body one transcends the all the paths and stages.
Your comment is short on detail, but this sounds like the Tientai Sudden and Perfect Teaching.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

I recall one of the gazillion initiations i had in tibetan Tradition.
there was this deity holding up a sword and we had do a visualization for protection with this Deity. thousands everywhere...
The Rinpoche pointed out it is the same Deity they use in Shingon.
i freaked.
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:43 pm It means in this body one transcends the all the paths and stages.
Your comment is short on detail, but this sounds like the Tientai Sudden and Perfect Teaching.
Tientai is a gradual path, even its Perfect teaching is in fact a gradual path.
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:29 pm I recall one of the gazillion initiations i had in tibetan Tradition.
there was this deity holding up a sword and we had do a visualization for protection with this Deity. thousands everywhere...
The Rinpoche pointed out it is the same Deity they use in Shingon.
i freaked.
It's Achala/Fudo Myoo!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:44 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:29 pm I recall one of the gazillion initiations i had in tibetan Tradition.
there was this deity holding up a sword and we had do a visualization for protection with this Deity. thousands everywhere...
The Rinpoche pointed out it is the same Deity they use in Shingon.
i freaked.
It's Achala/Fudo Myoo!
thanks.
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe »

Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:48 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:44 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:29 pm I recall one of the gazillion initiations i had in tibetan Tradition.
there was this deity holding up a sword and we had do a visualization for protection with this Deity. thousands everywhere...
The Rinpoche pointed out it is the same Deity they use in Shingon.
i freaked.
It's Achala/Fudo Myoo!
thanks.
As you might know, Fudo is also in the Gohonzon, by the right side, Ragaraja by the left!
Image
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:43 pm Tientai is a gradual path, even its Perfect teaching is in fact a gradual path.
Why do you say so?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg »

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:44 pm It's Achala/Fudo Myoo!
He's my avatar. :smile:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:43 pm Tientai is a gradual path, even its Perfect teaching is in fact a gradual path.
Why do you say so?
It is pretty clear from the descriptions of the perfect teaching path found in various places. In theory it is nongradual, but in practice it is gradual.
But it is like smelting iron: [in the process of smelting,] gross impurities first run off, even though that was not the original purpose of the task. The intent resides in becoming a vessel. Before the vessel is cast, the impurities must first be removed. Even though one sees them being removed, not even a moment of satisfaction is derived from this. Why not? Because he has not yet achieved his purpose. The practitioner of the Perfect Teaching is just like this. Even though [the removal of mental disturbances] is not his original aim, they are naturally removed first.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140221125 ... gyoui.html
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:34 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:43 pm Tientai is a gradual path, even its Perfect teaching is in fact a gradual path.
Why do you say so?
It is pretty clear from the descriptions of the perfect teaching path found in various places. In theory it is nongradual, but in practice it is gradual.
But it is like smelting iron: [in the process of smelting,] gross impurities first run off, even though that was not the original purpose of the task. The intent resides in becoming a vessel. Before the vessel is cast, the impurities must first be removed. Even though one sees them being removed, not even a moment of satisfaction is derived from this. Why not? Because he has not yet achieved his purpose. The practitioner of the Perfect Teaching is just like this. Even though [the removal of mental disturbances] is not his original aim, they are naturally removed first.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140221125 ... gyoui.html
Yeah. That is somewhat of a conundrum.
The line immediately before the quote you cite is:
"Yet the original intention of the adherents of the Perfect Teaching was not to eliminate the mental disturbances caused by views, perceptions, and dealing with the detailed affairs of the world. Their intention resides in entering the abodes, eliminating ignorance, and seeing the Buddha-nature."

What you are leaving out is that the stages are framed within the Sudden and Perfect, as expressed in the quote from the Avatamsaka - “At the first arousal of intention, one directly consummates perfect enlightenment; replete with the wisdom body, one is enlightened without relying on others.”

Purification is incidental.

But your point is taken.

This is why Nichiren called Zhiyi's teaching provisional: Zhiyi taught the Sudden and Perfect teaching in theory. That was as far as Nichiren went in his criticism, though. He was very careful about it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Nichiren and Tantra - Split from Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by illarraza »

Shingon Guru (Yui) Yoga is an SGI/Nichiren Shoshu practice:

"When the priests and lay believers of the faith of Nichiren Shoshu have the occasion to be in the presence of the high priest, with palms pressed earnestly together in sincere gratitude, we pay prayer-like reverence to him as the Master who embodies the Living Essence of the Body of the entirety of the Law of all existence, which has been passed down through the generations since the lifetime of the Daishonin. . .In short, with perfectly sincere faith and self-imposed strict obedience, we should hold the high priest's instruction in deepest reverence -- and we must realize that it is right there that the great, direct path of the true relationship of unfiltered, unrestricted faith between Master and disciple, which leads to ultimate enlightenment in this lifetime, is to be found." (Dai Nichiren Special Edition (II) 1991 pp. 13-14)

President Toda taught in his Lecture on the Sutra:

“With this silent prayer, we express our sincere thanks to the Second High Priest Nikko Shonin, the founder of Head temple Taisekiji. Hossui-shabyo: Hossui is the Law or Buddhism metaphorically compared to clean water. Shabyo means “transfer. Now suppose here are two glasses, one of which is filled with water. The water is transferred from one glass into the other. The quality of the water remains unchanged through this transfer even though the shapes of the glasses may differ. Simililarly, the Hossui of Nichiren Daishonin was handed down from Nikko Shonin to Third High Priest Nichimoku Shonin. However, its geneuine purity was not changed in the least. This solemn tradition has been strictly maintained by the successive high priests of Nichiren Shoshu.

YUIGA YOGA: This means that the life of Nikko Shonin equals that of Nichiren Daishonin. A Gohonzon called the “Tobi” (Flying) Mandala” is enshrined at Butsugenji Temple in Sendai City in Northeast Japan. It was inscribed co-operatively by the Daishonin and His immediate successor Nikko Shonin. This fact evidences what yuiga yoga signifies.” –Josei Toda as quoted in: From “Lectures on the Sutra” Third Edition, 1968 Seikyo Press.

Please note that no where in the Lotus Sutra or the writings of Nichiren Daishonin, can we find the concepts or words, YUIGA YOGA but in Tendai/Shingon esotericism, this is a core principle. Central to Lamanism, an offshoot of Shingon, are the Four Treasures and the most important Treasure is the Treasure of the Guru. The other Three Treasures are subsumed within the Treasure of the Guru. This is known as Guru Yoga. The same goes for the SGI, whether it is implicit or implied. When SGI members or leaders chant Namu Myoho renge kyo, they are revering their Sensei. While they chant Namu Myoho renge kyo with their voices, they chant Namu Sensei in their hearts.

Makiguchi and Toda read the Lotus Sutra according to the distorted teachings of the Taisekaji priests who adopted the two related Zen and Shingon concepts respectively: The Transfer of the Water of the Law; and Yuiga Yoga or the Oneness of living Master and Disciple. The SGI has adopted these distorted Zen and Shingon viewpoints, in contrast to the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin which state, “This Sutra”.

More proof of SGI’s transgressions are Daisaku Ikeda’s teachings that mirror those of his deluded Sensei, Josei Toda. Ikeda once taught, “The basis of Nichiren Shoshu is the Lifeblood recieved only by a single person. To faithfully follow the High Priest of the bequethal of the Lifeblood is the correct way for priests and laybelievers. If one is mistaken about this single point, then everything will become insane.” And now he declares, “Following the Three Presidents of the Soka Gakkai is the basis of the Lifeblood of faith”

Doctor Daisaku Ikeda, ironically, was born into a household whose ancestors reside in Mitsugonin, a temple of the Shingon sect. It is a slanderous place which was established in accordance with Shingon formalities.

The Shingon patriarch, the Learned Doctor Shan-wu-wei too, despite his wisdom and strong practice, was mistaken about the teachings of Buddhism. Shan wu-wei was persecuted. Christ too was persecuted and his teachings are far less insidious than Shan-wu-wei’s, Makiguchi’s, and Ikeda’s. Their teachings resemble little the teachings of the Original Buddha Shakyamuni’s [Lotus Sutra] and Nichiren Daishonin’s. Visions and “visionaries”, not firmly grounded in the teachings of the Original Buddha Shakyamuni and the Daishonin, reside in the realm of delusion.

On the cause of calamities. Nichiren teaches:

"But I, Nichiren, employing the little wisdom I possess, can perceive the cause for all this. It is to be found in the erroneous rites of the True Word school. Mistaken activities carried out by one person can call down calamity on ten thousand states. Even one person performing them can bring about the destruction of one or two countries. How much more so, then, if three hundred or more priests join with the ruler of the nation to act as archenemies of the Lotus Sutra! How could the nation fail to be destroyed?"

Likewise, today, it is SGI's mistaken activity of Shingon Yui Yoga that is destroying Japan with such calamity as Fukushima and USA California with drought and now fire.

Mark
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