Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

illarraza
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by illarraza » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:39 am

Professor Stone states that there are 194 complete, definitely authentic writings either with a known Nichiren’s holograph or the holograph of one of the first or second generation disciples [56]. Are all of these 56 trustworthy transcriptions? Some writings can not be known with absolute certainty and some can. In Japan, the scholarship of the Kempon Hokke priests is highly valued but I’m not even sure if they have undertaken the task to authenticate, let alone probabilitize all the Gosho. I am certainly not equal to the task but I try, to the best of my ability, for the sake of my faith and understanding and to preserve the authentic teachings. The SGI and Nichiren Shoshu don’t even acknowledge the teachings of Nichiren and Nikko on forged writings [with few exceptions, for example, the SGI now acknowledges that the Hundred and Six Comparisons and On the True Cause are forgeries despite Ikeda singing their praises before the split].

illarraza
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by illarraza » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:55 am

The ambiguous state of the corpus that is the bones and marrow of the SGI...

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2013/07/t ... -that.html

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:34 am

I don't think singling out the gakki is actually answering my questions.

i ask about where Nichiren Shonin wrote that Myoho Renge Kyo is an entity and you give this as an answer after a few beg you moment posts to answer me...
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:32 am

I have no problem with the part of the Shoho Jisso sho that teaches, "The entities of all phenomena are entities of Myoho-renge-kyo. That is the meaning of ''the true aspect of all phenomena.'" It is the mixing of the clean with the unclean that is so dangerous about this writing and most forged texts.
the truly wierdness about it is this....you cry foul over and over about SGI and all you can come up with is a forgery gosho and decide it is ok because you have no problem with it....

and what is sam hell does this even mean?
"The entities of all phenomena are entities of Myoho-renge-kyo.
It's from a forgery and i think you tweeked it ..
is that a quote from a forged gosho ...or you paraphrasing a fake gosho...


seriously dude what the hell are you on about?

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jikai
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by jikai » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:52 am

Having read Stone's book, you are well aware that not all medieval or all subsequent Tendai prelates accepted Original Enlightenment ideas...and yet...
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:04 am
Medieval Tendai* Original Enlightenment doctrine is not Nichiren's teaching and is another reason they are an enemy of the Lotus Sutra.
:|

"I deeply revere you. I dare not slight and contemn you. Wherefore? You all walk the Bodhisattva Way and are to become Buddhas"


:bow:
"止觀明靜前代未聞"
(摩訶止觀)

"此妙法蓮花經者本地甚深之奧藏也"
( 法華玄義)

"觀心者空觀是般若假觀是解脫中觀是法身"
(法華文句)

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:36 am

jikai wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:52 am
Having read Stone's book, you are well aware that not all medieval or all subsequent Tendai prelates accepted Original Enlightenment ideas...and yet...
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:04 am
Medieval Tendai* Original Enlightenment doctrine is not Nichiren's teaching and is another reason they are an enemy of the Lotus Sutra.
:|

"I deeply revere you. I dare not slight and contemn you. Wherefore? You all walk the Bodhisattva Way and are to become Buddhas"


:bow:
so from a Tendai point of view ...what do those that adhere to Original enlightenment think it means.

narhwal90
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:36 pm

The thing is various schools make various interpretations. To reference Q's analogy; lights being turned on via practice vs lights were always on so no need to do anything, for example. I prefer the "lights come on via practice" interpretation myself.

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:45 pm

narhwal90 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:36 pm
The thing is various schools make various interpretations. To reference Q's analogy; lights being turned on via practice vs lights were always on so no need to do anything, for example. I prefer the "lights come on via practice" interpretation myself.
does sgi adhere to the hongaku original enlightenment theory ..and besides lights and furniture what do they think it means.

this is my problem..and i'm not a total idot...
i cannot find a lucid definition of either.
I believe some think the two terms mean the exact same thing, others they mean totally different things and others they sort of are related.

i'm freaked that people can believe and use something as serious as a Buddhist view of what it is all about and not be able to settle on a definition.


putting one's hands up and saying well thats what it is all about since time imortal ...we will never settle it.

Anyway i awoke this morning with an odd thought...

this brain we seem to think is us is not us at all but an earthly product grown and evolved on planet earth.

The real you is something other that now dwells in this body and is lost to most.

Samsaric life is a nightmare that traps sentients due to karma....

According to Buddha He wanted us to know this and for the first time it actually makes sense to me.

Maybe due to intense ODaimoku on the subject of this original enlightenment thing..

I think when we die we have a moment of somewhat clarity before Karma kicks in and we get lost in the bardo body which then dies when we enter a Samsaric life form.

fun times...

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:53 pm
When it is said the Nichiren Shonin describes Myoho Renge Kyo as the "Entity" ...is this from 100% authentic verifiable writing?
Where does he call it an "entity"? I'm having trouble finding it. I doubt "entity" is meant in the sense of "sattva".
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:53 pm
When it is said the Nichiren Shonin describes Myoho Renge Kyo as the "Entity" ...is this from 100% authentic verifiable writing?
Where does he call it an "entity"? I'm having trouble finding it. I doubt "entity" is meant in the sense of "sattva".
i think i read what i am asking on this forum is by someone who posted MyoHo RenGe Kyo is an entity.

it's in my head...

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Minobu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Minobu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:43 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:53 pm
When it is said the Nichiren Shonin describes Myoho Renge Kyo as the "Entity" ...is this from 100% authentic verifiable writing?
Where does he call it an "entity"? I'm having trouble finding it. I doubt "entity" is meant in the sense of "sattva".
my next reading if i check out and see it is authentic gosho
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/47

narhwal90
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by narhwal90 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:57 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:45 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:36 pm
The thing is various schools make various interpretations. To reference Q's analogy; lights being turned on via practice vs lights were always on so no need to do anything, for example. I prefer the "lights come on via practice" interpretation myself.
does sgi adhere to the hongaku original enlightenment theory ..and besides lights and furniture what do they think it means.

As far as getting a single story on Nichrien or hongaku, please forgive me for the xkcd reference;

https://xkcd.com/927/

but as to SGI, the term is not mentioned- they don't seem to go further afield than ichinen sanzen, at least in areas of general study. That said, page 1 of the sgi buddhsim basics webpage proposes all beings have the buddha nature and Nichiren developed the daimoku practice to help us manifest it. Given the attitude toward practice; chant daimoku, go to meetings, get involved, I think SGI would take a "practice to turn the lights on" view of hongaku. I attended the district monthly meeting on on sunday at a district leader's house. The place was packed; 20+ people in the living room, 1 guest, between 3 and 6 members is < 1yr and a mixed bunch of old-timers including some very formidable & outspoken ladies. Given the guests and inexperienced members, the focus moved towards how to chant & how to handle the monkey mind. Several of the the formidable ladies shared about how their busy minds calm through the practice, they showed significant awareness of calming & insight phenomena that can arise while chanting & were articulate as to its relation to daily life. That to me is "turn the lights on via practice" sort of stuff.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:27 pm

Entity is a misleading term. Its hard to get the nuance right.

当体義
Literally, its something like this:
"The Purport of this Body"

Its not some essence. Its a reference to the nexus point of all the causes and conditions that imply the individual being. In Lotus Buddhism, that nexus is referred to as the thought-moment that is is elaborated as the Three Thousand Realms.

Disregard the word, "entity". Its just going to sow confusion.

In any event, this is a term from disputed writings. You don't need to trouble yourself with it unless you want to wade into those murky waters.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:31 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm
Minobu wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:53 pm
When it is said the Nichiren Shonin describes Myoho Renge Kyo as the "Entity" ...is this from 100% authentic verifiable writing?
Where does he call it an "entity"? I'm having trouble finding it. I doubt "entity" is meant in the sense of "sattva".
my next reading if i check out and see it is authentic gosho
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/47
Why is this one so different from that one? I am very unexposed to Ven Nichiren's gosho's. Is one a commentary?
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:47 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:31 pm
Minobu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:43 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:29 pm


Where does he call it an "entity"? I'm having trouble finding it. I doubt "entity" is meant in the sense of "sattva".
my next reading if i check out and see it is authentic gosho
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/47
Why is this one so different from that one? I am very unexposed to Ven Nichiren's gosho's. Is one a commentary?
The first is a detailed comparison of translations of an excerpt. The latter is the whole document.

FYI the article by Swanson I linked to earlier in this thread discusses the Lotus as Symbol and Lotus as Reality touched on in that excerpt.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:17 am

This is giving me a headache. Is “entity” being used in the same sense as in the LS chapter two, “Their entities as such,” etc.?

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:23 pm

The French Nichiren Buddhists really step up their game on pedagogical resources in a way I don't see a lot in English. At work atm, but here's the webpage I'm consulting for kanji that correspond to "entity". This is from a dictionary specialized for Zen though.

https://dictionnairebouddhismezen.wordp ... ite-forme/

The first two words are: littéralement « Tous les dharmas sont la forme manifestée de la réalité »

All dharmas are the manifested essense of reality.

Shoho = sarvadharma
Jisso = 実相, might be "entity", could also be "true aspect", corresponds with la forme manifestée
Sho = ?, entity?
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:28 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:23 pm
The French Nichiren Buddhists really step up their game on pedagogical resources in a way I don't see a lot in English. At work atm, but here's the webpage I'm consulting for kanji that correspond to "entity". This is from a dictionary specialized for Zen though.

https://dictionnairebouddhismezen.wordp ... ite-forme/

The first two words are: littéralement « Tous les dharmas sont la forme manifestée de la réalité »

All dharmas are the manifested essense of reality.

Shoho = sarvadharma
Jisso = 実相, might be "entity", could also be "true aspect", corresponds with la forme manifestée
Sho = ?, entity?
Disregard the above. Confusion between this thread and another. Apologies.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Queequeg
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:37 pm

Jisso defined by the Muller's Digital Dictionary of Buddhism
Basic Meaning: true form of things as they are
Senses:

True original nature. Reality; real aspect. The unchanging, equal reality-principle; a translation term originally made popular by Kumārajīva 鳩摩羅什. In his translation of the Madhyamakakārikās it is a rendering of the Skt. tattvasya-lakṣaṇam and dharmatā. In his translation of the Lotus Sutra (the preface) it is a rendering of dharma-svabhāva. It is understood as the content illuminated by the Buddhaʼs enlightenment, and thus a synonym for such notions as thusness 眞如/一如, reality 實性, dharmakāya 法身, nirvana 涅槃, unconditioned 無爲, and so forth. As contrasted with falsity 虛妄. The discussion of the 'true marks of dharmas' is something that characterizes Mahāyāna 大乘 Buddhism. Thus, while 'lesser vehicle' 小乘 Buddhism said that the orthodoxy of the Buddhist teaching required confirmation of the three marks 三法印 (impermanence 無常, no-self 無我, and nirvana 涅槃), Mahāyāna added the fourth mark of reality 實相印. The notion of the true marks of all dharmas 諸法實相 would end up being interpreted differently by the proponents of different schools, but it still tended to be the ultimate description of reality in their respective systems. [Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Soothill, JEBD, Yokoi, Iwanami]
In the Diamond Sutra (sect. 14), it is Kumārajīvaʼs rendering for bhūtasaṃjñā, 'a conception or idea of what is true.' (T 235.8.750b2, 754b17) [Robert Buswell; source(s): T235, Nakamura]
It is real. A true observation. [Charles Muller]
Other synonymous terms include 一實; 一相; 無相; 法證; 法位; 當相, 眞諦; 眞性; 眞空; 實諦; 實際) (Skt. dharma-svabhāva, naya, bhūta-naya, *bhūta-lakṣaṇa, lākṣaṇika, *satya-lakṣaṇa, svabhāva-lakṣaṇa) [Charles Muller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa]
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

markatex
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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:24 pm

“Entities as such” as in “nyo ze tai” from the Lotus Sutra refers to the combination of “appearance as such” and “nature as such” and doesn’t really refer to anything mystical.

Neither does the term “suchness,” really.

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Re: Shoho Jisso Sho (All Phenomena as Ultimate Reality)

Post by markatex » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:09 pm

At the risk of poking the bear...
illarraza wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:32 am
That part of that scripture, I have no problem with. I have a problem with the following:

"Therefore, the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas who are functions [of Myoho-renge-kyo]. It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha. This is what is described in the sutra as “the Thus Come One’s secret and his transcendental powers.” The “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha. “His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas. A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha. A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so. On the contrary, it is common mortals who endow him with the three virtues."
Admittedly, this is rather convoluted wording. I've always just taken it to mean that if it weren't for "common mortals," there wouldn't be a need for the Original Buddha. And/or that the Original Buddha appeared as a "common mortal." I never thought it meant that the Original Buddha is subservient to unenlightened beings.
I have no problem with the part of the Shoho Jisso sho that teaches, "The entities of all phenomena are entities of Myoho-renge-kyo. That is the meaning of ''the true aspect of all phenomena."
Well, this teaching is why this writing spoke to me, and I always thought it was the main point of it. That's what I really wanted to discuss with this thread. Perhaps there are other writings that aren't in doubt as to their authenticity that contain this teaching, and someone can point them out.

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