Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Point number three and the CC?


Eh....not always. That kinda depends on who is point number 1.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dzogchungpa »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:I really was sorry about using the word "mainstay".
rory wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:Leader worship is all too common, however it can get worse than Ikeda, guru personality cults are sort of a mainstay of contemporary Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism and also to some degree the western Zen community, and has even lead to sexual misconduct and even outright sexual abuse in some cases.
I agree with all of the above Myoho-Nameless; ...
So, Rory, in light of Myoho-Nameless' obviously sincere expression of regret, do you still agree with all of the above?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Masaru
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Masaru »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:I really was sorry about using the word "mainstay".
rory wrote:
Myoho-Nameless wrote:Leader worship is all too common, however it can get worse than Ikeda, guru personality cults are sort of a mainstay of contemporary Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism and also to some degree the western Zen community, and has even lead to sexual misconduct and even outright sexual abuse in some cases.
I agree with all of the above Myoho-Nameless; ...
So, Rory, in light of Myoho-Nameless' obviously sincere expression of regret, do you still agree with all of the above?
Regret for calling the Tibetan cult out for being follow-the-leader types or was there something he implied about how the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra? Please clarify.
dude
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

If the Catholic Church is a cult, then rory's right, all organized religions are cults; which makes the word meaningless.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Masaru »

dude wrote:If the Catholic Church is a cult, then rory's right, all organized religions are cults; which makes the word meaningless.
Cult and sect are words originally dished out by the Catholic church itself to describe various religious groups. They refer to Protestant denominations as "sects," for example. Unpopularity seems to be the determining factor for calling a given creed a cult outside of that context.

The Catholics do, and believe, many bizarre things themselves, yet they are the most populous group of Christians. They do things which many might consider cultish if done by another group or if the seriousness with which they take their beliefs were applied to other doctrines. Consider the cannibalism of the Christian Eucharist. It's such an in-the-background non-thought that most never stop to think about it fully. It's the norm.

When most people think about "cults," they think about groups teaching things far outside of the spectrum of what's considered normal, usually headed by an abusive, controlling leader, which leads its members into things like fanatical slavery, suicide, or to regularly break the law for the sake of the group - and which does so to a high percentage of its followers or to those who are completely unwilling. SGI is like the Catholic or Mormon churches, but without the pederasty/polygamy.
Last edited by Masaru on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
dude
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

You imply that the Catholic Church is a cult, then say they invented the term.
How does that help in finding a working definition of a cult?
Masaru
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Masaru »

dude wrote:You imply that the Catholic Church is a cult, then say they invented the term.
How does that help in finding a working definition of a cult?
I stated that the Catholic church fits the definition given by you of what constitutes a cult. If you read my last post carefully and consider what was written, you'll realize that I've hinted at a different definition, which has to do with the popularity of the group involved and how severely self-destructive it is to the majority of followers. Sure, Catholics are neurotic and Mormons are "out there," and SGI is a bit wacky - but they aren't shipping their members off to isolated communes to produce goods for their respective groups at no cost. A group that did the latter could safely be considered a cult in the somewhat vague, popular sense that most of us use that word in.
Son of Buddha
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Son of Buddha »

dude wrote:If the Catholic Church is a cult, then rory's right, all organized religions are cults; which makes the word meaningless.


Yes all religions are cults.
The word cult is entirely useless nowadays it is used to simply describe a group that a person does not like, agreewith or understand...... So one mans/womans cult is anouther mans/womans orthodox.

I think its more contructive to ask is this group destructive or have immoral behavior.
Are they jim jones types destructive ?
or are they slightly destructive to the point that they could be eventually redeemed?

Do they have a few bad apples or are they curropt from the top down.

Anouther question in relation to SGI I have heard of them having very questionable recruitment methods in the past....... This was the past do they still have these problems today or are they starting to reform themselves and become more productive members of the Buddhist community?
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

What kind of questionable recruitment methods?
dude
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

Fair enough, Masaru.
Son of Buddha
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Son of Buddha »

dude wrote:What kind of questionable recruitment methods?
Myoho Nameless mentioned a few on page 8
I have heard of other questionable recruitment methods they used in the past also.

My point is those things have been said to have happened in the past. This is the present are they currently going on right now?

Personally I dont view SGI as a dangerous cult, I havent seen in modern times(2000s)
Where they have told anyone to kill someone,kill themselves,assualt or physically harm anouther.
But thats just my view........
dude
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

You mean this, Son of Buddha?

They To my knowledge, the SGI was once ambitious enough to say that by year XXXX they want to convert one third of the world. Crazy. Is that a fact? they pressured people to bring in new members, and I heard stories of young women telling young men "you want to go to a nudist meeting"? only to later have to be "honest" and say "no no I meant a BUDDHIST meeting!"
both sound absurd.
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

Masaru wrote: Regret for calling the Tibetan cult out for being follow-the-leader types or was there something he implied about how the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra? Please clarify.
by "he", do you mean me?

If so, let the records show that I obviously think Nichiren Buddhism is the best Buddhism, and this should not come as a shocker, nor should it offend anyone, as this is basically how every single sect person operates. If I thought another sect was better than NB, I would belong to it. If I thought there were many sects of equal merit, I would be eclectic. I have reconciled this with the teaching of there being only one vehicle, the ekayana, and "inferior" types of Buddhism are "legit".


Let the records also show that TB is not unique in having the potential to become a personality "cult". Its a risk you run if you emphasize master/disciple relationships to a degree conducive of it. Its a risk, not a guarantee.
dude wrote: both sound absurd.
So it didn't happen? Or the pressure put on people to come with x new members by the next meeting?

just curious.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia
dude
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dude »

There has been that kind of pressure in the past. Not so much now.
To teach one person the practice so they can benefit from it is a great thing.
To talk someone into joining and then teaching them nothing is not.
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by rory »

Jechan's link was to Illaraza's blog and this
article written by Lisa Jones of Buddha Jones:
During my years as an SGI member and as the editor of BuddhaJones.com, I have observed the extreme fear and superstition that SGI members feel toward their own organization. Many write to tell me about some crappy thing that happened to them in the SGI, but they beg me not to publish their letter, or to post it under an assumed name — and some ask me not to tell anyone that they were even reading my web site. They are afraid of being in trouble with SGI, of being shunned, of having misfortune rain down upon them because they dared to displease "the org."
One of the reasons why I say SGI is a cult is because it instills in members this irrational fear that harm will come to them unless they remain members in good standing. It’s not as if some leader says: “OK, now we’re going to indoctrinate you with fear and irrational beliefs.”

There are many in SGI who scoff at the notion of mind control. They shrug and say that every religion instills some measure of fear in its practitioners. Even Nichiren had his fire-and-brimstone moments. Yeah, to an extent. But I’m talking about indoctrinating people with a fear that serves to benefit the religious corporation rather than the practitioner -- a fear that is not instructive or helpful, but is destructive and manipulative.
Cults characteristically exert control over members’ behavior and the information members receive about the cult, as well as members’ thoughts and emotions. This is referred to as the “BITE” model of cult influence: Behavior, Information, Thought, Emotion.
Some members say, “So what if it’s a cult? SGI has helped me, given me structure and a sense of purpose. Besides, I don’t care about organizational stuff. I just care about practicing Buddhism correctly.”
This is the most insidious thing about SGI, in my opinion: the organization distorts Nichiren Buddhism to undermine members’ autonomy and increase their dependence on SGI, and promotes this as “correct practice.”
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dzogchungpa »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Masaru wrote: Regret for calling the Tibetan cult out for being follow-the-leader types or was there something he implied about how the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra? Please clarify.
by "he", do you mean me?

If so, let the records show that I obviously think Nichiren Buddhism is the best Buddhism, and this should not come as a shocker, nor should it offend anyone, as this is basically how every single sect person operates. If I thought another sect was better than NB, I would belong to it. If I thought there were many sects of equal merit, I would be eclectic. I have reconciled this with the teaching of there being only one vehicle, the ekayana, and "inferior" types of Buddhism are "legit".


Let the records also show that TB is not unique in having the potential to become a personality "cult". Its a risk you run if you emphasize master/disciple relationships to a degree conducive of it. Its a risk, not a guarantee.
So you don't think that the Tibetan cult consists of follow-the-leader types, or that the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Jechan
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Jechan »

南無妙法蓮華経, rory.
Thanks for summarising that :bow:
南無妙法蓮華経
南無妙法蓮華経
南無妙法蓮華経
南無妙法蓮華経
Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Myoho-Nameless »

dzogchungpa wrote: So you don't think that the Tibetan cult consists of follow-the-leader types, or that the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra?
a word of advice, stop caring about what I think. you don't want to develop a persecution complex. As a furry, I know all about those. I have already said what I think in my last post.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by dzogchungpa »

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: So you don't think that the Tibetan cult consists of follow-the-leader types, or that the Vajrayana is entirely illegitimate compared to the perfect, lofty wisdom of the Lotus Sutra?
a word of advice, stop caring about what I think. you don't want to develop a persecution complex. As a furry, I know all about those. I have already said what I think in my last post.
Duly noted.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Hieros Gamos
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Re: Soka Gakai (SGI) Criticism Thread

Post by Hieros Gamos »

The etymology of "cult" is from the Latin "cultus". Related to cultivation, culture, agriculture, etc.

And "sect" is from the Latin "secta", which was a following, literally a way, or a road. Possibly related to the English verb to "shag" (as in, to "chase after" e.g. baseballs - dirty minds). Related to "seek", "sequel", "consequent", "segue", "sequence", "second", etc.

So apparently "cults" and "sects" are as old as digging crops and following paths.

:pig:
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