Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

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Rita_Repulsa
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Rita_Repulsa » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:58 pm

There were some issues brought up in this thread that I believe are important to address, and I'm going to get back to that. At the moment, I'm doing some Maitreya-esque stuff, but I will return to this thread.

This expounder of the Dharma, Varaprabha,
Had one disciple who was lazy
And attached to fame and fortune.
This disciple ceaselessly sought these things
And amused himself from house to house.
He abandoned recitation of the sutras,
And, forgetting them,
Never became versed in them.
For this very reason he was named Yaśaskāma.
But since he had also performed many good deeds,
He was able to meet innumerable buddhas.
He paid homage to all these buddhas
And having practiced the great path after them,
Acquired all the six perfections and
Now meets the Lion of the Śākyas.
He shall subsequently become a buddha called Maitreya
Who will extensively bring
Innumerable sentient beings to the path.
- LS Ch1


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Echo interaction cause and effect the interconnected quality of the absolute truth the foundation of Buddhism laying in this belief in happiness the four immeasurable and cessation of suffering. - tomschwarz

Buddhism is not a Care Bears fantasy (as many westerns think). - Harimoo

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rory
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by rory » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:06 am

Hmm, I remember the Nichiren forums, can't say I stayed much it seemed to be the same 4 people, though I really did appreciate the Nichiren locator, I thought that was genius. I found there was a Nshu temple in my state and had no idea. I'm sad it's gone and also that MarkP is ill though I really never knew him.

Frankly I dont see an organized Indy movement every happening; what's the point? There are plenty of Nichiren sects out there that are welcoming and not angry. And with the internet you can have online sanghas for the scattered. So to me a non-denom sect has no appeal, especially with the issue of some kind of priestly training. Frankly the level is low these days, I have a dear ex NSUK friend who was full of faith and still is, but has no idea why she believes what she does and doesn't seem to care. That's kind of what a good sect should do; explain and teach but I understand there is an entire generation of people just so disallusioned by the NSA split and war.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Rita_Repulsa
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Rita_Repulsa » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:39 pm

Queequeg wrote:Anyway, what happened?

Independent Movement - the main guy died. It lost steam after that.

ION - the main guy was laid low by a stroke. It lost steam after that.
Illaraza's still here.
rory wrote:Hmm, I remember the Nichiren forums, can't say I stayed much it seemed to be the same 4 people, though I really did appreciate the Nichiren locator, I thought that was genius. I found there was a Nshu temple in my state and had no idea. I'm sad it's gone and also that MarkP is ill though I really never knew him.

Frankly I dont see an organized Indy movement every happening; what's the point? There are plenty of Nichiren sects out there that are welcoming and not angry. And with the internet you can have online sanghas for the scattered. So to me a non-denom sect has no appeal, especially with the issue of some kind of priestly training. Frankly the level is low these days, I have a dear ex NSUK friend who was full of faith and still is, but has no idea why she believes what she does and doesn't seem to care. That's kind of what a good sect should do; explain and teach but I understand there is an entire generation of people just so disallusioned by the NSA split and war.
Nyeah. I'm glad you commented. I think it all really boils down to this: There's a much larger world out there that goes far beyond just the people who have been introduced to Nichiren via SGI or anyone asking questions online. Trying to pull people together from SGI's, uh... "castaways"... has proven a mistake time and again, for me and for others.
So to me a non-denom sect has no appeal
So.. you're saying... this kind of thing would filter you out? ... :D :cheers: :hug:
Queequeg wrote:The qualifier, "Independent" or "Non-Denominational", has its justification because sectaries make membership and loyalty to sects and sub-sects a big deal. If proponents of the various schools did not go around pounding their chests with claims of orthodoxy and accusations of heresy, there wouldn't be the need to disavow with a declaration of non-affiliation and actively stand outside. If you really want to follow this line of logic, ideally, you shouldn't even feel the need to declare "I'm a Nichiren Buddhist", let alone, "I'm Buddhist." But we live in samsara with its myriad distinctions and we are provisionally compelled to make and declare our choices.
Hmm. You know, the way the Zennist uses the word "Mu!" almost strikes one as being similar to when people give an explanation by saying, "Well, just because."

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
:namaste:
Echo interaction cause and effect the interconnected quality of the absolute truth the foundation of Buddhism laying in this belief in happiness the four immeasurable and cessation of suffering. - tomschwarz

Buddhism is not a Care Bears fantasy (as many westerns think). - Harimoo

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Queequeg
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:59 pm

Rita_Repulsa wrote: Illaraza's still here.
Illaraza proclaims to be the real Hokke Kempon, whatever that means. At least that't the last I checked. But who has time to keep up with what he's doing. All that can be said is he's, according to him, the only real deal. Self-enlightened, apparently.
Queequeg wrote:The qualifier, "Independent" or "Non-Denominational", has its justification because sectaries make membership and loyalty to sects and sub-sects a big deal. If proponents of the various schools did not go around pounding their chests with claims of orthodoxy and accusations of heresy, there wouldn't be the need to disavow with a declaration of non-affiliation and actively stand outside. If you really want to follow this line of logic, ideally, you shouldn't even feel the need to declare "I'm a Nichiren Buddhist", let alone, "I'm Buddhist." But we live in samsara with its myriad distinctions and we are provisionally compelled to make and declare our choices.
Hmm. You know, the way the Zennist uses the word "Mu!" almost strikes one as being similar to when people give an explanation by saying, "Well, just because."
Wha? Nope.

Let me break it down in simpler terms for you: Its a reaction.

If you're going to critique, understand what you're critiquing.

Once again, I'm caught out here with the thankless job of explaining things I don't subscribe to.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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illarraza
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by illarraza » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Rita_Repulsa wrote: Illaraza's still here.
Illaraza proclaims to be the real Hokke Kempon, whatever that means. At least that't the last I checked. But who has time to keep up with what he's doing. All that can be said is he's, according to him, the only real deal. Self-enlightened, apparently.
Queequeg wrote:The qualifier, "Independent" or "Non-Denominational", has its justification because sectaries make membership and loyalty to sects and sub-sects a big deal. If proponents of the various schools did not go around pounding their chests with claims of orthodoxy and accusations of heresy, there wouldn't be the need to disavow with a declaration of non-affiliation and actively stand outside. If you really want to follow this line of logic, ideally, you shouldn't even feel the need to declare "I'm a Nichiren Buddhist", let alone, "I'm Buddhist." But we live in samsara with its myriad distinctions and we are provisionally compelled to make and declare our choices.
Hmm. You know, the way the Zennist uses the word "Mu!" almost strikes one as being similar to when people give an explanation by saying, "Well, just because."
Wha? Nope.

Let me break it down in simpler terms for you: Its a reaction.

If you're going to critique, understand what you're critiquing.

Once again, I'm caught out here with the thankless job of explaining things I don't subscribe to.
Truth be told, I am one of few who takes Nichiren at his word and points people towards Nichiren as the head and exemplar of the Sangha and only correct interpreter of the Lotus Sutra in Mappo. Those who practice interfaith, for example, the Nichiren Shu, SGI, and Kempon Hokke, can not be considered disciples of Nichiren by virtue of abandoning his teachings on the exclusive faith and practice of the Lotus Sutra. Likewise, those like the Nichiren Shoshu who add to and alter Nichiren's teachings [principle of Daigohonzon, patriarchal transmission, and Nichiren as Original Eternal Buddha] can not be considered disciples of Nichiren by virtue of changing his teachings. I think this is a reasonable and consistent position. It also accords with the teachings of Nichiju, the founder of the Kempon Hokke.

Illarraza

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Queequeg
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:29 pm

Doc,

As a general matter, I sympathize with your approach. However, the problem with your approach in practice is that you can't read Nichiren's writings in the original form. In fact, very few people can. His writings are in kambun and medieval colloquial Japanese. You therefore have to rely on translations and that causes you all sorts of problems, obvious and not so obvious.

Understanding Nichiren also requires a broad understanding of Nichiren's context, particularly the sources he was drawing on, the contemporary ideas and practices of his time, and the socio-political environment.

Understanding Nichiren is not as easy as just picking up his works in translation and taking them literally based on what you bring to the table - and as you've proclaimed recently on this boar, reading Nichiren doesn't necessitate any special learning. As a consequence, you are just reading a reflection of your own mind.

It would be one thing for you to proceed with a tentative reliance on your sources, but you don't. You proclaim the infallibility of your interpretation and then burn up bandwidth criticizing everyone else. You are broadcasting your ignorant approach to the world and drawing the unlearned and timid down your path. Faith is commendable, but without learning, or at least humility, its just doubling down on whatever object of ignorance you form in your mind.

If Nichiren's teachings can be summed up in a word, I would suggest its Rissho 立正 (Establishing the Correct) as in Rissho Ankoku Ron, as in Rissho Daigaku (Rissho University), as in Rissho Kosei Kai. If you actually read and understood Japanese, you'd understand how solemn and serious that word is. Your approach is at best a caricature of Rissho.

QQ
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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Rita_Repulsa
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Rita_Repulsa » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:42 pm

Queequeg wrote:Doc,

As a general matter, I sympathize with your approach. However, the problem with your approach in practice is that you can't read Nichiren's writings in the original form. In fact, very few people can. His writings are in kambun and medieval colloquial Japanese. You therefore have to rely on translations and that causes you all sorts of problems, obvious and not so obvious.
Empathy and sympathy are similar but distinct. The former is born from the bond of shared experiences, the latter is respectable but is too easily accompanied by condescension which itself breeds resentment. You're mischaracterizing Illaraza's online activities in what you've written here, and this isn't a mistake or a misunderstanding on your part. You are doing this deliberately.
Understanding Nichiren also requires a broad understanding of Nichiren's context, particularly the sources he was drawing on, the contemporary ideas and practices of his time, and the socio-political environment.

Understanding Nichiren is not as easy as just picking up his works in translation and taking them literally based on what you bring to the table - and as you've proclaimed recently on this boar, reading Nichiren doesn't necessitate any special learning. As a consequence, you are just reading a reflection of your own mind.

It would be one thing for you to proceed with a tentative reliance on your sources, but you don't. You proclaim the infallibility of your interpretation and then burn up bandwidth criticizing everyone else. You are broadcasting your ignorant approach to the world and drawing the unlearned and timid down your path. Faith is commendable, but without learning, or at least humility, its just doubling down on whatever object of ignorance you form in your mind.

If Nichiren's teachings can be summed up in a word, I would suggest its Rissho 立正 (Establishing the Correct) as in Rissho Ankoku Ron, as in Rissho Daigaku (Rissho University), as in Rissho Kosei Kai. If you actually read and understood Japanese, you'd understand how solemn and serious that word is. Your approach is at best a caricature of Rissho.

QQ
You're assertion that the works of Nichiren are somehow so arcane that only the most learned of scholars, steeped in an intricate knowledge of Japanese medieval society and language can even grasp the spirit of his writings, is cultural chauvinism on your part.
Once again, I'm caught out here with the thankless job of explaining things I don't subscribe to.
Itemize your prospective contributions and we'll pick those we believe we'll find useful and deposit a donation into a PayPal account for you.
Let me break it down in simpler terms for you: Its a reaction.
This is unquestionably the most concise explanation you've given over the years. Rather than dance around the issue, give a bit of background and other tangentially significant information without really elaborating on the meaning and implications of the subject itself, you've hit your target in one shot by covering it as deeply as you ever intended. This honesty is refreshing.
old timers like me have failed you in not having a community for you, whatever the level of connection or involvement you want.
You owe us nothing. From my perspective, your debts and duties are to the Buddha, your family, and to the America the Beautiful. Those who want change have to become that change. It's the only way; that very desire is the karma of the person who carries it.

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:namaste:
Echo interaction cause and effect the interconnected quality of the absolute truth the foundation of Buddhism laying in this belief in happiness the four immeasurable and cessation of suffering. - tomschwarz

Buddhism is not a Care Bears fantasy (as many westerns think). - Harimoo

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by rory » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:11 am

Masaru: You're assertion that the works of Nichiren are somehow so arcane that only the most learned of scholars, steeped in an intricate knowledge of Japanese medieval society and language can even grasp the spirit of his writings, is cultural chauvinism on your part.
This is ridiculous, he's talking about the context of 13th century Japan. Even you're not that clueless, so I just assume you're bored and want to argue.

I'm not going to and Queequeg I assume also doesn't want to waste his time. I suggest you practice instead of doing this.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Rita_Repulsa » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:25 am

rory wrote:
Rita_Repulsa: You're assertion that the works of Nichiren are somehow so arcane that only the most learned of scholars, steeped in an intricate knowledge of Japanese medieval society and language can even grasp the spirit of his writings, is cultural chauvinism on your part.
This is ridiculous, he's talking about the context of 13th century Japan. Even you're not that clueless, so I just assume you're bored and want to argue.

I'm not going to and Queequeg I assume also doesn't want to waste his time. I suggest you practice instead of doing this.
gassho
Rory
Ridiculous is as ridiculous does. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to inform me of how busy you are. I'll stop posting when you attain perfect enlightenment.
Echo interaction cause and effect the interconnected quality of the absolute truth the foundation of Buddhism laying in this belief in happiness the four immeasurable and cessation of suffering. - tomschwarz

Buddhism is not a Care Bears fantasy (as many westerns think). - Harimoo

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:36 pm

Rita_Repulsa wrote: your debts and duties are to.... your family, and to the America the Beautiful.
Ask yourself. Really ask yourself. If it is mutual.

if its not, you don't owe them a gods-damned thing.
I just don't belong.

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:29 pm

Myoho-Nameless wrote:
Rita_Repulsa wrote: your debts and duties are to.... your family, and to the America the Beautiful.
Ask yourself. Really ask yourself. If it is mutual.

if its not, you don't owe them a gods-damned thing.
:popcorn:

illarraza
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by illarraza » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:32 am

rory wrote:
Masaru: You're assertion that the works of Nichiren are somehow so arcane that only the most learned of scholars, steeped in an intricate knowledge of Japanese medieval society and language can even grasp the spirit of his writings, is cultural chauvinism on your part.
This is ridiculous, he's talking about the context of 13th century Japan. Even you're not that clueless, so I just assume you're bored and want to argue.

I'm not going to and Queequeg I assume also doesn't want to waste his time. I suggest you practice instead of doing this.
gassho
Rory
The context is Mappo and I surmise it will remain so for ten thousand years and more, for all eternity.

illarraza

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by bcol01 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:18 pm

hi I just discovered HBS. How is it different than Shu?
Jechan wrote:Hey sdaly1969,
I saw in a post that you said you are leaning toward HBS? Thats great!
Im a HBS practitioner and would love to answer any questions you may have. Just send me a PM if theres anything youd like to know.
In the meantime check out this great blog by Ryosetsu Ikemoto, a young monk and attendant to the current HBS head priest.

http://ryosetsu.com

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo!

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Minobu
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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Minobu » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:30 pm

It's all very confusing...I'm in a time out ..

TIMSIES!!!! no sect for me right now...

practice and wait to see what happens whilst i pick the brain of Queequeg.
He knows stuff...and i want that stuffing...
I would like to get it together and have an altar and Butsudan with maybe one of them there Shutai Gohonzon from Nichiren shu...the one Nichiren shonin slept beside with the mistake stroke on it...

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Re: Independent Nichiren Buddhists?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:01 am

Locking this thread as it is old. Most of the participants in this thread have not been around in a while so I don't think you will get much of a response. Any questions you have, please just start a new thread, or find a more recent thread where the question will fit.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

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