Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

robban
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by robban » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:46 pm

I'm sure Ehrman is superb in his work but i get a little bit suspicous
when theres testimonials on a blog.
Its not enough with what he writes, he has to have people telling people how great he is.

Just a thought.

I'm swedish.
English is not my first language

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rory
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:21 pm

robban wrote:I'm sure Ehrman is superb in his work but i get a little bit suspicous
when theres testimonials on a blog.
Its not enough with what he writes, he has to have people telling people how great he is.

Just a thought.

I'm swedish.
Oh, hehe, I quite agree his ego is inflated. Try Burton Mack then, he equates Jesus to a Cynic philosopher : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_L._Mack
Swedish, well not a language I can write it, but so close to English I feel I could learn it in a second (as opposed to my Finnish friend:)
Personally I'm fine with a statue of Shakyamuni on my altar but understand we come from aniconic traditions...
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by DGA » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:07 am

I like that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple and reminded the wealthy that they're going to hell.

I also appreciate that he preferred the company of those left behind or rejected by his society: the homeless, fishermen, sex workers, and so on. He also didn't hesitate to spit in the eye of power. Jesus had courage. Good for him.

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rory
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:55 am

Jikan wrote:I like that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple and reminded the wealthy that they're going to hell.

I also appreciate that he preferred the company of those left behind or rejected by his society: the homeless, fishermen, sex workers, and so on. He also didn't hesitate to spit in the eye of power. Jesus had courage. Good for him.
That's from the Gospels, so we don't know if historic Jesus even said such things or it was a conflation *sigh* and you're obviously still a Christian Jikan. As in Buddhism everyone is appreciated, remember Anathapindaka, the rich guy? Also low class barbers, women and non-humans - the Dragon King's Daughter and even Devadatta, the most evil guy there is, is assured he will be a Buddha, much more compassionate.

this is why I prefer my dharma from born Buddhists, no Judeo-Christian cultural baggage..
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

illarraza
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by illarraza » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:07 am

There he is the Good Sheppard himself on Ryuei's altar. I wonder if he died for Ryuei's sins?... http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/index.html

illarraza

robban
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by robban » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:33 pm

rory wrote:
robban wrote:I'm sure Ehrman is superb in his work but i get a little bit suspicous
when theres testimonials on a blog.
Its not enough with what he writes, he has to have people telling people how great he is.

Just a thought.

I'm swedish.
Oh, hehe, I quite agree his ego is inflated. Try Burton Mack then, he equates Jesus to a Cynic philosopher : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_L._Mack
Swedish, well not a language I can write it, but so close to English I feel I could learn it in a second (as opposed to my Finnish friend:)
Personally I'm fine with a statue of Shakyamuni on my altar but understand we come from aniconic traditions...
gassho
Rory
You know what you get when you mix english and swedish?
You get swenglish
You know, sounds like the swedish chef :twothumbsup:
English is not my first language

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Tatsuo
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Tatsuo » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:13 pm

Jikan wrote:I like that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple and reminded the wealthy that they're going to hell.
I also appreciate that he preferred the company of those left behind or rejected by his society: the homeless, fishermen, sex workers, and so on. He also didn't hesitate to spit in the eye of power.
Why do you subscribe to the idea, that rich people will go to hell? There is nothing inherently wrong about being rich (while killing animals and sexual misconduct is considered harmful in Buddhism). Just like rory said: We should include everyone in society from the rich money changer to the beggar. This violent behaviour against people and disparaging others is certainly not something we should encourage. If you compare Jesus to Sadāparibhūta Bodhisattva (aka Never Disparaging Bodhisattva) you can see, that Jesus still has a long way to go.
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:40 pm

rory wrote:
Jikan wrote:I like that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple and reminded the wealthy that they're going to hell.

I also appreciate that he preferred the company of those left behind or rejected by his society: the homeless, fishermen, sex workers, and so on. He also didn't hesitate to spit in the eye of power. Jesus had courage. Good for him.
That's from the Gospels, so we don't know if historic Jesus even said such things or it was a conflation *sigh* and you're obviously still a Christian Jikan. As in Buddhism everyone is appreciated, remember Anathapindaka, the rich guy? Also low class barbers, women and non-humans - the Dragon King's Daughter and even Devadatta, the most evil guy there is, is assured he will be a Buddha, much more compassionate.

this is why I prefer my dharma from born Buddhists, no Judeo-Christian cultural baggage..
gassho
Rory
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There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by nichirenista » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:23 am

rory wrote:
Jikan wrote:I like that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple and reminded the wealthy that they're going to hell.

I also appreciate that he preferred the company of those left behind or rejected by his society: the homeless, fishermen, sex workers, and so on. He also didn't hesitate to spit in the eye of power. Jesus had courage. Good for him.
That's from the Gospels, so we don't know if historic Jesus even said such things or it was a conflation *sigh* and you're obviously still a Christian Jikan. As in Buddhism everyone is appreciated, remember Anathapindaka, the rich guy? Also low class barbers, women and non-humans - the Dragon King's Daughter and even Devadatta, the most evil guy there is, is assured he will be a Buddha, much more compassionate.

this is why I prefer my dharma from born Buddhists, no Judeo-Christian cultural baggage..
gassho
Rory
To be honest, this is one reason I enjoy reading posts by Queequeg.

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rory
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:57 am

Tatsuo wrote:[
Why do you subscribe to the idea, that rich people will go to hell? There is nothing inherently wrong about being rich (while killing animals and sexual misconduct is considered harmful in Buddhism). Just like rory said: We should include everyone in society from the rich money changer to the beggar. This violent behaviour against people and disparaging others is certainly not something we should encourage. If you compare Jesus to Sadāparibhūta Bodhisattva (aka Never Disparaging Bodhisattva) you can see, that Jesus still has a long way to go.
Tatsuo; great discussion of Buddhist values. Let's continue...another great Buddhist value is that you are responsible for your karma - your actions can send you to a Buddhist hell; no one else can.

Many of us (I know I do) need to consciously think about and assimilate these Buddhist values into our minds, replacing previous cultural conditioning.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Tatsuo
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Tatsuo » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:00 pm

rory wrote:Tatsuo; great discussion of Buddhist values. Let's continue...another great Buddhist value is that you are responsible for your karma - your actions can send you to a Buddhist hell; no one else can.
You're exactly right, rory. People hurting others are naturally drawn towards hell or the other lower states of existence and there is no "highest" being condemning you to hell. On the contrary: The highest beings - Buddhas and Bodhisattvas - vow to empty the hells and help every living being. The Christian doctrine, however, expects followers to adopt the concept of them living in luxury in heaven with the knowledge of other human beings experiencing eternal excruciating torture in hell. I think that this concept of compassion formulated in the Bodhisattva ideal is the most encompassing and unconditional in religious history and even in all of the history of ideas. This ideal is something we should remind ourselves of and revere, not the conditional (because its only shown towards believers) and temporary (because it does not apply after death) compassion of Jesus.

It is not only the concept about hell, which is fundamentally opposed to Buddhist values, but also the behaviour of the god of the Bible. When looking at how his character is being described, a Buddhist can not help but notice surprising similarities with the description of asuras in the sutras. Asuras are often described as beings driven by wrath, pride, jealousy and being constantly engaged in war, which is exactly the story of the god of the bible, who is jealous of other gods, waging war against tribes not worshipping him and seeing himself as the only being worthy of worship.
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  • 南無妙法蓮華經
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by illarraza » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:41 am

Tatsuo wrote:
rory wrote:Tatsuo; great discussion of Buddhist values. Let's continue...another great Buddhist value is that you are responsible for your karma - your actions can send you to a Buddhist hell; no one else can.
You're exactly right, rory. People hurting others are naturally drawn towards hell or the other lower states of existence and there is no "highest" being condemning you to hell. On the contrary: The highest beings - Buddhas and Bodhisattvas - vow to empty the hells and help every living being. The Christian doctrine, however, expects followers to adopt the concept of them living in luxury in heaven with the knowledge of other human beings experiencing eternal excruciating torture in hell. I think that this concept of compassion formulated in the Bodhisattva ideal is the most encompassing and unconditional in religious history and even in all of the history of ideas. This ideal is something we should remind ourselves of and revere, not the conditional (because its only shown towards believers) and temporary (because it does not apply after death) compassion of Jesus.

It is not only the concept about hell, which is fundamentally opposed to Buddhist values, but also the behaviour of the god of the Bible. When looking at how his character is being described, a Buddhist can not help but notice surprising similarities with the description of asuras in the sutras. Asuras are often described as beings driven by wrath, pride, jealousy and being constantly engaged in war, which is exactly the story of the god of the bible, who is jealous of other gods, waging war against tribes not worshipping him and seeing himself as the only being worthy of worship.
The existence and reality of hell is taught in Buddhism in many ways. Here are three ways: 1). http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/369 2). http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2 ... 88#para-18

3). "First of all, as to the question of where exactly hell and the Buddha exist, one sutra states that hell exists underground, and another sutra says that the Buddha is in the west. Closer examination, however, reveals that both exist in our five-foot body. This must be true because hell is in the heart of a person who inwardly despises his father and disregards his mother. It is like the lotus seed, which contains both blossom and fruit. In the same way, the Buddha dwells within our hearts. For example, flint has the potential to produce fire, and gems have intrinsic value. We ordinary people can see neither our own eyelashes, which are so close, nor the heavens in the distance. Likewise, we do not see that the Buddha exists in our own hearts. You may question how it is that the Buddha can reside within us when our bodies, originating from our parents’ sperm and blood, are the source of the three poisons and the seat of carnal desires. But repeated consideration assures us of the truth of this matter. The pure lotus flower blooms out of the muddy pond, the fragrant sandalwood grows from the soil, the graceful cherry blossoms come forth from trees, the beautiful Yang Kuei-fei was born of a woman of low station, and the moon rises from behind the mountains to shed light on them. Misfortune comes from one’s mouth and ruins one, but fortune comes from one’s heart and makes one worthy of respect."

Although you have discussed this to some extent, Tatsuo, here is elaborated he most important distinction between [Nichiren] Buddhist and Christian hell:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2013/12/a ... ermon.html

Illarraza

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:11 am

Considering the last post and that on the biblical god ( and yes I see Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah etc as violent asuras) I 'd like to continue. Judas, surely the most notorious evil-doer in Western religion, has left a long, long history of concommitant anti-semitism. Jews were/are hated by Christians and Muslims in the past and today, whilst unknown to many King Ajatasatru and many 'bad' guys in Buddhist historical tales are actually Jains. But there is no history of anti-Jain prejudice in Buddhist countries or amongst Buddhists. In fact it was only my Jain friends who gifted me with Jain literature that I discovered Jain heroes are Buddhist villains!

It's interesting to think about but the important point is that in Buddhism we don't hate/loathe/scapegoat anyone. They will all become Buddhas.
Additionally Buddhism requires us to acknowledge the Buddha nature of animals, insects, birds, all sentient beings. We are all equal.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by DGA » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:50 pm

rory wrote:Considering the last post and that on the biblical god ( and yes I see Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah etc as violent asuras) I 'd like to continue. Judas, surely the most notorious evil-doer in Western religion, has left a long, long history of concommitant anti-semitism. Jews were/are hated by Christians and Muslims in the past and today, whilst unknown to many King Ajatasatru and many 'bad' guys in Buddhist historical tales are actually Jains. But there is no history of anti-Jain prejudice in Buddhist countries or amongst Buddhists. In fact it was only my Jain friends who gifted me with Jain literature that I discovered Jain heroes are Buddhist villains!

It's interesting to think about but the important point is that in Buddhism we don't hate/loathe/scapegoat anyone. They will all become Buddhas.
Additionally Buddhism requires us to acknowledge the Buddha nature of animals, insects, birds, all sentient beings. We are all equal.
gassho
Rory
Hi Rory,

You raise a number of important issues in this post.

It's true that there is a long, deep, and broad history of anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim thought--and action--in European, and hence Christian, history and in contemporary discourse too. I don't think it's fair to attribute that to Judas, though--unless I misunderstand your post. And, sadly, there is a strong trend of straightforward xenophobia thought in much of contemporary Jewish discourse too. I'm not one to defend any of this.

But all this is somewhat beside the point, because the OP isn't asking about putting Christians, Muslims, or Jews on a Buddhist altar. The question is about putting an image of Jesus on one. I don't have a position on whether this is appropriate for a specifically Nichiren Buddhist context, because I don't know. I wouldn't put an image of Jesus on my own altar. I'm not a Christian practitioner. I take refuge in the Triratna, not in the Christian Trinity.

I do respect some things about Jesus' teachings and actions, though, and that's why I chimed into this discussion. I mentioned some of this earlier in this thread, so I won't rehearse it: I appreciate that he had the courage to call out the corruption and lack of virtue in his own culture. Buddha Shakyamuni did not hesitate to point out that afflictive emotions such as greed and hatred send people to hell realms. I don't think this is blaming people, per se; it's an exhortation not to make the pursuit of money your life's objective--to give one example. Buddha Shakyamuni rejected the social stratification of his time by dissolving the bigotry of the caste system into the much more democratic sangha. Jesus, similarly, welcomed the lowest of the low into his close circle. He also gave out free health care and fed the hungry (I'm told). Good for him.

Perhaps more interesting is what I haven't been able to find in reading the Gospels. I don't recall an instance where Jesus advocated for sexism, racism, preference for tribal affiliation, or homophobia. He spends more time discussing what kinds of fruit he dislikes (figs) than any of these, if memory serves. How to reconcile this with the kinds of ideas in circulation, say, on The 800 Club--well, whose problem is that? (I should add that Jesus had some strong advice against being a hypocrite, and against praying loudly in public looking for popularity and approval for doing so--I wonder if our televangelist friends read those parts.)

What I'm about to say may be a bit more controversial, so I beg your forebearance. Something I deeply admire about the Jewish tradition is its ability to produce outsiders (that is, outsiders to the Jewish tradition) who, nonetheless, are strongly influenced in a positive way by their experience as Jews and as outsiders. Think of Baruch Spinoza and Karl Marx: both had their intellectual formation in a Jewish context, became alienated from that context and community, and produced brilliant--provocative--challenging--interventions into their cultural milieu. (Is it an accident that so many important feminist thinkers are also Jewish? That's a rhetorical question.) Are Spinoza or Marx *right*? Who knows, but the world is better off with provocative thinkers in its midst. I think Jesus is one of these Jewish outsiders. I put him in the same line as Spinoza and Marx, among others.

An even more controversial point that is worth considering is not my idea, but Brook Ziporyn's idea. Ziporyn claims on the basis of his study of TienTai thought that Nichiren and Jesus share many important characteristics as historical figures--that the patterns of their lives share many parallels, and that these parallels matter. It's in the book Being and Ambiguity. I'll post some quotations later if I can find them. The gist of his claim is that the same thing that made Nichiren great also made Jesus great, but in an entirely different context (in fact it has to do with how both of them related to and intervened in their historical moment, so the context is key).

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:07 am

Hi guys. As this discussion seems (per the OP) to be about something quite specific, I removed a number of off-topic posts. Let me know if you have any questions. In addition, blatant ad-homs and whatnot will just be removed, per the ToS.
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:20 am

Let me reiterate.

1) This is the Nichiren subforum firstly, and on a specific question, not "Buddhism v.s Christianity"

2) Dharmawheel ToS states this is not a "comparative religion" forum. We don't want to get to crazy with enforcement, or preventing people from profitable conversations, but long, involved talks on comparative religion generally have a bad history on the forum, and for that reason are worth exercising some discretion with.

Thanks.
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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:18 am

Moving on; neither monotheistic paraphernalia nor a monotheistic mindset belongs on or before your altar. Let's spend our time here cultivating Buddhist cultural values.
Here's one: wealth is good as it permits leisure to study, spread the dharma, build temples and print books.
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:51 pm

Respectfully, Rory, i see things differently.

Having wealth is a neutral condition. It has the tendency of amplifying the actions of those who wield it.

Since delusion pervades the human world, wealth in practice tends to be wielded delusionally. That is not good for us.

Occupy.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by rory » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:28 am

Queequeg wrote:Respectfully, Rory, i see things differently.

Having wealth is a neutral condition. It has the tendency of amplifying the actions of those who wield it.

Since delusion pervades the human world, wealth in practice tends to be wielded delusionally. That is not good for us.

Occupy.
Perhaps you and I have different ideas about what constitutes wealth; for me it is an education, a home, a well-paying job, and leisure time. More people around the world now have these things. Now maybe people want to fritter away their leisure time on video games, shoppping, attending soccer matches etc which is 'delusional' but not harmful. In fact I'd say people are better off 'wealthy' than poor. If you are poor, jobless, uneducated, your life is a hell. Wouldn't you agree?

And today you don't have to be a Steve Jobs wealthy person to help spread the Dharma. I contributed a modest amount to Kempon to print free gongyo books which are distributed. I think I'm very fortunate to live in a time where I can do such a thing.

I enjoy a thoughtful discussion, so everyone please feel free to agree/disagree talk about cultivating Buddhist values:)
gassho
Rory
and yes I fritter my time in some 'delusional' fashion as reading fanfiction but it's maybe 10%. I think most people's lives aren't lived in absolutes.
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Jesus on the Nichiren Buddhist altar?

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:03 pm

Rory,

I think you moved the goal posts.

The comment that set this off was Jikan's comment that he appreciated Jesus for telling the wealthy they were going to hell. You responded that this was not a Buddhist attitude and you accused Jikan of being some sort of crypto-Christian. You referred to Anathapindika, one of the Buddha's lay supporters who was wealthy, in the usual sense of the word, ie. rich, ie. rolling in it, ie. well off, ie. monied, the Park Avenue crowd, etc., in support of the idea that being rich in Buddhist doctrine is not a bad thing the way it presumably is in Christianity. I make no judgment as to whether it is bad to be rich in Christian thought; I'm ignorant on that.

When I used the term "wealthy", I meant it in the usual way. Now you're saying what you actually meant by "wealth" actually sound more like "middle class". We can argue about "American Middle Class" in relative terms being wealthy compared to a menial laborer in Lagos, but those are just games. Wealth in my mind, and in the usual sense of the word, is Park Avenue Masters of the Universe, buying $100,000,000 dollar condos as second or third homes, rich. As my reference to Occupy Wall Street suggests - I mean the wealthy are the 1% and maybe even more specific, the top 99.9 percentile. That's fine. Semantics. I'll go with your definition of "wealth".

For the sake of clarity - this is what we disagree on - you suggest that wealth is a categorical good. I don't agree. I see it as neutral. Its utility, in and of itself, is indeterminate. It all comes down to how its used. If you fritter it away on video games (guilty), movies and television (guilty), midlife crisis toys (guilty), fan fiction (not guilty) and anything else that tends to distract one from perfection of wisdom, its delusion and perpetuating delusion. I think you actually agree with that.

So, the only difference is the judgment about whether wealth is inherently good, bad or neutral. Well, its empty - and can be good, bad, neutral, none of the above, all of the above, neither none nor all of the above.

Lets be generous with our wealth!
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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