Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Myoho-Nameless
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Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:54 am

Over the eons since I began this practice I have managed to accumulate roughly 6 or 7 gongyo books from various sources. I find it best to vary my pattern and use different formats. I also have no allegiance to any sect, org, or school, and am neutral on most points of contention in the Nichiren community, so this does not bother me. I have noticed that there are differing pronunciations of the sutra recitation. I will give two examples from the 2nd chapter just using the romaji.

Go ju jo butsu irai

Go ju jo butchi rai

nyo ze hon matsu kukyo to

nyo ze hon mak kukyo to

I feel like the reason is staring me in the face as, many moons ago, I studied the Japanese language, and I have been assuming these differences exist more or less for the same reasons that the "nam" vs "namu" pronunciations of the daimoku exist. There is just variance in shindoku. Though it follows a pattern and it not modified willy nilly. both of the examples I have given I have been assuming are related to the "tsu" sound in Japanese.

Am I correct? or is there some other reason for this variance?

also, does anyone know why the Fuji schools use the 5 or 6 prayer format?

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Rita_Repulsa
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Rita_Repulsa » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:11 pm

Just chant in English.

:thumbsup:
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Myoho-Nameless
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:37 pm

Rita_Repulsa wrote:Just chant in English.

:thumbsup:
do not want. English is nice and all but I don't find it liturgy friendly. I used to chant in english once a week.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

dude
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by dude » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:51 pm

You are correct.
These are contractions.
The meaning is the same, just as "it is" means the same thing as "it's".

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Queequeg
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:23 pm

dude wrote:You are correct.
These are contractions.
The meaning is the same, just as "it is" means the same thing as "it's".
Some are contractions. Some might be typos. Some might be resort to different systems of transliterating Japanese as English.

The "butchi" is almost certainly a typo. I don't know of any reading of 佛 as 'butchi'.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by KanseCapon » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:24 am

Butchi is a typo in that it should be separated out to "but chi" as it is made up of two kanji which are chanted with one beat each.

As Q mentioned, there are many ways of transliterating it. What we're actually looking at is this:

吾 従   成   佛  已 来
ご じゅう じょう ぶッ チ らい
ご じゅう じょう ぶつ い らい
Go ju jo but chi rai
Go ju jo butsu i rai

You may also see it transliterated as "Go jū jō buc' chi rai".

The character for Buddha: 佛 is usually read "butsu" but depending on what comes after it, that may change. The reading of two kanji when they're next to each other follows rules, however as your examples show there is often more than one way to read them - depending on the lineage it may be different.

Gasshō,
Kanse.

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Myoho-Nameless » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:19 am

Thank you for all those thus far who responded (well, most of you :tongue: )

I find the notion of a typo in a gongyo book comedic.
"Keep The Gods Out Of It. Swear On Your Heads. Which I Will Take If You Break Your Vow."- Geralt of Rivia

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Queequeg » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:44 am

Kanse!

Nice to "see" you here!

Folks, we are fortunate to have Kanse join the fray!

Q
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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rory
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by rory » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:30 am

Oh super, welcome! I'd be more than grateful if you could help me with this passage in my sutra book; it's in the following prayers and it's not the same as the recording

The English is:
From this body until the Buddha Body we shall keep well The Three Great Secret Dharmas of the "Chapter of the Measure of Life" of the original docrtrine of the Hokkekyo, the actual 'one though is threee thousand realms', 'this good excellent medicine' which is Namu Myoho Renge Kyo.

Kon Jin Yori Butsu shin ni I ta ru made Yoku Tamo chi Tatematsu ru Hokkekyo Honmon Juryo Hon no Ji no Ichinen Sanzen Ze Ko Ro Yaku no Namu Myoho renge kyo.

gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by KanseCapon » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:07 am

Q, nice to see you too, and thanks for the kind words. I will try and chip in when I can.

Rory, I'm not sure what you're asking...I'm not sure which recording you're talking about so I can't say whether it's different or not. I'm also not sure what you mean by "following prayers". I guess from your signature you're a Kempon Hokke Shu member, so this must be part of the Kempon Hokke liturgy, right?

Gasshō,
Kanse.

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rory
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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by rory » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:13 am

KanseCapon wrote:Q, nice to see you too, and thanks for the kind words. I will try and chip in when I can.

Rory, I'm not sure what you're asking...I'm not sure which recording you're talking about so I can't say whether it's different or not. I'm also not sure what you mean by "following prayers". I guess from your signature you're a Kempon Hokke Shu member, so this must be part of the Kempon Hokke liturgy, right?

Gasshō,
Kanse.
Kanse; I'm sorry for being so obscure and imprecise. Yes, I'm asking about the final prayers in the Kempon Hokke Liturgy, if this link works you can hear it and the prayer: Kon Jin Yori starts at 3:05 http://redmp3.cc/4887512/kempon-hokke-s ... rayer.html
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by KanseCapon » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:03 am

Hi Rory,

Ah, there are a couple of words missing from the romanised Japanese you have. They are "Sandai Hihō" which is the "Three Great Hidden Dharmas". It should read:

Kon jin yori, Busshin ni ita ru made, yoku tamo chi tatematsuru Hōkekyō Honmon Juryōhon no Sandai Hihō Ji no Ichinen Sanzen ze kō rō yaku no Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō, Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō, Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō.

今身より、仏身に至るまで、よく持ち奉る法華経本門寿量品の三大秘法事の一念三千是好良藥の南無妙法蓮華経、南無妙法蓮華経、南無妙法蓮華経。

今身より、仏身に至るまで、よく持ち奉る = With this present body, until I attain the body of the Buddha, I will maintain faith (This is frequently used in service liturgy. It is the same wording used when taking Jukai in Nichiren Shū, is often recited at the end of services, and also appears in Nichiren Shū Shōdaigyō.)

法華経本門寿量品の三大秘法事の一念三千 = in the Three Great Hidden Dharmas contained in the Life Span Chapter of the Original Gate of the Lotus Sūtra, the Ichinen Sanzen of Actuality

是好良藥の南無妙法蓮華経。= which is the good medicine of Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō. (the term "good medicine" 是好良藥 comes from Chapter 16).

Gasshō,
Kanse.

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by rory » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:57 am

Arigatō gozaimashita! Kanse; I'm so very appreciative not only for the missing words but for the characters and explanation and thoughtful discussion. I'm not surprised that this is the same as Nichiren Shu, they were once the same sect; wish it were still that way:)
gasshō
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by KanseCapon » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:37 pm

You're welcome, Rory.

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:54 pm

Firstly there is no Gongyo or Gongyo format discussed in Nichiren’s Teachings. Secondly there was no Gongyo performed by Lay Believers before the early 1950’s when Josei Toda petitioned Nichiren Shoshu on behalf of The Soka Gakkai.

I deal thoroughly with Gongyo here:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23047&sid=b71af54d ... a439d96275
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Minobu » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:16 pm

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:54 pm
Firstly there is no Gongyo or Gongyo format discussed in Nichiren’s Teachings. Secondly there was no Gongyo performed by Lay Believers before the early 1950’s when Josei Toda petitioned Nichiren Shoshu on behalf of The Soka Gakkai.

I deal thoroughly with Gongyo here:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23047&sid=b71af54d ... a439d96275
First up, thanks for the info and the belief that gongyo started with one of my heroes Josei Toda. He liked to be referred to as just Toda when speaking out .
that being said i wonder when the original sect Nichiren Shu started Gongyo?
anyone?

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by rose » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:53 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:16 pm
*snip*
Minobu please check your PM inbox.

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by narhwal90 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm

Nichiren accepted sutra recitation, and discussed the thrice repeated 10 factors from the Hoben chapter. The selection of other chapters sed in gongyo seems idiosyncratic to the various lineages. Nichiren also accepts meditation on ichinen-sanzen and other Tendai concepts, likewise contemplation of the 3 Truths.

No reason why such scope would not produce a variety of practices. Controversy over chapters of the sutra started soon after he died. I use the sgi app on my phone for gongyo, daimoku when on travel. works just like a regular gongto book afaict. But i'm glad to have the the full Lotus Sutra and various commentaries to read also.

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by Minobu » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:26 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:50 pm
Nichiren accepted sutra recitation, and discussed the thrice repeated 10 factors from the Hoben chapter. The selection of other chapters sed in gongyo seems idiosyncratic to the various lineages. Nichiren also accepts meditation on ichinen-sanzen and other Tendai concepts, likewise contemplation of the 3 Truths.

No reason why such scope would not produce a variety of practices. Controversy over chapters of the sutra started soon after he died. I use the sgi app on my phone for gongyo, daimoku when on travel. works just like a regular gongto book afaict. But i'm glad to have the the full Lotus Sutra and various commentaries to read also.
As always you make it lucid...thanks

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Re: Varying pronunciations and formats of gongyo

Post by illarraza » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:03 am

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:54 pm
Firstly there is no Gongyo or Gongyo format discussed in Nichiren’s Teachings. Secondly there was no Gongyo performed by Lay Believers before the early 1950’s when Josei Toda petitioned Nichiren Shoshu on behalf of The Soka Gakkai.

I deal thoroughly with Gongyo here:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23047&sid=b71af54d ... a439d96275
You are no different than the Honmon Butsuryu Shu in eschewing Gongyo:

"Reciting the Lotus Sutra is now senseless." -- "Saint" Nissen from The Teachings of the Honmon Butsuryu Shu by Nissho Fukuoka

This is not the teaching of Nichiren. We find in the Chu Hokkekyo, Nichiren's annotated copy of the Lotus Sutra

善戒経云。若無菩薩性者。雖復発心勤行精進雖復発心懃修精進。終不能得阿耨菩提

"One can't obtain Enlightenment without performing Gongyo" -- Nichiren

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